Hello,
I have a garage door (walk in, not drive in) threshold problem that I hope someone can shed some light on. Our metal threshold has been loose for some time and I decided to repair it.
First of all, this threshold spans from the concrete garage floor to an external concrete walkway. When I removed the loose threshold, I discovered that it was adhered by screws from the sides. There was absolutely no vertical fastener’s holding the threshold in place which surprised me. This made it easy to remove, but was also the reason that it came loose, IMO. The bottom of the door jam has rotten over the years which in turn, accelerated this threshold loosening.
I have inserted cedar stock beneath the aluminum threshold, treated it with a good water sealer, and it now everything fits very nicely. My dilemma is that I now have to adhere this threshold to the garage concrete floor, but would prefer to not have to do so with concrete screws or bolts as this would entail drilling through the threshold and not look proper at all and could cause an accident.
What I would like to do is glue this down with an adhesive meant for situations such as this. IMO, this would mean an adhesive with a very high shear strength to resist the daily treading and the weather we have here in Chicago.
Any comments or suggestions are most welcome.
Phillip
Replies
How would drilling cause an accident? (Or do you mean that your DIY projects often involve an ER visit?)
And look bad?? This is a garage door!!
You could toss the cedar piece, build up the floor with thinset, then bed the AL threshold in more thinset. Otherwise epoxy would be your best bet, but not a sure thing.
Dan,The threshold was set in thinset. That was the first thing to come apart.My reference to an accident was that if I inserted a lag-bold anchor, someone could possible stub a toe on the head of the bolt. I've since discovered lead anchors which use a #10-14 screw and this may work very well. I have not been very confident in just the adhesive to do the job.Thanks for your post.Phillip
You don't need lead anchors -- Tapcons would work as well or better, and they're available (I think) in a flathead version.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
PL Premium Polyurethane glue. In a tube like caulk available at Lowes. Weight it with a few cinder blocks over night.
Sphere,I'm feeling better and better about this. I just purchased a tube of 'PL Polyurethande Premium Construction Adhesive'. I believe that this is what you're referring to. Since I began this thread, I have also discovered lead anchors which use #10-14 screws which have a lower profile that the lag-bolt anchors which I envisioned protruding too much and were the basis of my concern about causing an accident.I believe that I will use two of these lead anchors - one at each end, and use the adhesive as well. I've seen lead anchors come loose, so the adhesive may help in this respect. The adhesive should grab well between the concrete and the treated cedar I have attached to the lower half of the AL threshold.Another poster mentioned using thinset, but this was the first part of this threshold that came apart, so the adhesive and the lead anchors should do the job.Thanks for your comments,
Phillip
I doubt that thinset was used originally. Probably just whatever random mortar they could mix up.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Dan,You could be right about that. All I can say is that some form of concrete was used as a filler below the front lip of the thershold and it has been cracked since we purchased this bungalow which was four years ago.Thanks for your post.
Yeah, it was probably shoved in after the door was installed.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
What I don't understand at all is the fact that the threshold was screwed into the doorjamb from the SIDES with some very small screws. I have never seen this before. This seems like such a flimsy way to attach a threshold that will be kicked and trampled over for many years.Have you ever seen this done before?
Edited 7/11/2007 1:57 pm by PhillipB
That's the way it was delivered from the factory, to hold everything together. After installation, the threshold was SUPPOSED to be fastened down through the screw holes that are likely under the rubber strip.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I've seen lead anchors come loose, so the adhesive may help in this respect
Lead anchors that come loose were improperly installed. Most likely to shallow and not set with a setting tool.
The tool to set lead anchors comes in each box of anchors, but very few people ever buy a box of 50 anchors, or know that the tool is suppose to come with them. Hardware stores and the big boxes sell anchors individually or in small quantity poly bags with no instructuions for proper installation.
An alternative to using the setting tool is a nut driver the same diameter as the outside of the lead anchor. Drill the hole at least 1/2" deeper than the anchor length, set the anchor in the hole and push it to the bottom of the hole, then set the wedge by striking the anchor with a setting tool or nut driver.
I have used lead anchors in overhead pipe trapieze installations that have a tremendouse amount of weight hanging from them. Never a failure when properly installed.
Dave
Dave,The anchors you describe in your post are not lead. All the ones of that type that I have seen are steel or stainless steel. The lead anchors I have seen don't use a setting tool. They expand when a woodscrew or lagscrew is driven into them. They were always made (in the toxic old days) out of the soft metal known as lead, but newer versions are often a soft zinc alloy instead. The newer versions are often sold under the moniker "lag shield."Bill
I've seen lead (or, more accurately lead/zinc) anchors that used a setting tool. Never seen a solid steel anchor -- don't see how they could work -- you have to have a soft metal on the outside to grab the concrete.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Dan,Okay, I believe you about the soft anchors with a setting tool. I have a selection of stud anchors and drop-in anchors that are all steel, sitting in my kit box. They are fully magnetic in every part. The steel "skirt" section at the bottom of the anchor has a ridge that digs into the concrete near the bottom of the hole when the anchor is set with the tool. The common geometry has a conical plug that wedges the "skirt" outward when set so it is wider than the hole diameter, and it tries to get wider still when the anchor is withdrawn from the hole.All that said, I still prefer chemical anchors for reliable strength, although the latest news from Boston's Big Dig does give me pause.Bill
I don't think that either the anchor that you are Dan or descripting are appropirate for this applicantion.We are talking about a something that will hold something in the range of a #8 or #10 screw.That includes the Tapcons and achors that will except wood screws. AFAIK, in that range you have the soft plastic or similar lead ones.When you get into the lag sheild, expandonding steel achors and the like you are talking about 1/4" or larger fasteners.Much too large for a threshold.Here is the expanding lead achors that require a setting tool.http://www.doityourself.com/invt/u848476http://www.doityourself.com/invt/u845316Here are several different types of anchors..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Yeah, I think Tapcons would be the most appropriate fastener here.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Yes, I agree that drop-ins are overkill for a threshold. Tapcons if hidden, Stainless screw into plastic sleeve if visible, is what I do.Thanks for the link to the soft metal drop-in. I have only used the steel ones.Bill
All of the newer integrated thresholds I've seen allow for hidden screws -- under the rubber gasket, or under the adjustable metal piece.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Dan, I'm curious, what brands have you seen with screw holes? I've only ever put in couple like that, and I can't remember the makers.Most sills are too thin to site countersink anything in, and the removable thresholds are a major pain to take out, drill holes, and replace.Screws have also got to seriously compromise the sill pan.We pl down the pan, put a small bead of silicone at the back, against the lip to stop air infiltration, then smoodge in the threshold.After everything is set up, we put in some sort of support (pt or tex, usually) for the front edge of the sill. Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press
Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky.
Well, I've installed a total of four prehung exterior doors, and removed another, and they all had holes in the threshold for screws. Not a large sample, granted, but a fairly wide range of age and quality.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Phillip...
I'm sure you've already finished your repair and moved on , however in case you haven't I have a bit of advice.
First, the best way to adhere the threshold is to use not an adhesive, but a urethane caulk such as np-1 or sikaflex in conjunction with a couple of screws (tapcons really do work the best for this application). The caulk will double as an adhesive but unlike the polyurethane adhesive you purchased, it will remain pliable and not get all hard, a condition that may lead to the adhesive eventually breaking loose due to the different amounts of expansion and contraction you will get with the drastic temperature swings from summer to winter. You are in pretty much one of the worst places for extreme temperature swings, a swing of over 100 degrees is not uncommon of there. One of the reasons why I left that all behind and moved someplace where it's always warm... ;-)
I'm not trying to alarm you, polyurethane adhesive is actually a wonderful product, and will most likely work just fine and give you many years with no problems at all. Just that urethane caulk is better for this application.
Also, it is imperative that you clean the surface of the concrete with a solvent... I always use laquer thinner... before you attempt this or I can just about guarantee that whatever adhesive you use will let go eventually.
One of your responders suggested that you actually don't need to use screws and instead to just use the adhesive and weight the threshold down overnight.
I have used this method many times and it really works quite well. a couple of tapcons will make it a better installation, and will replace the need to weight it down overnight, but isn't absolutely necessary if you do a good job with the adhesive.
Mark,Thanks so much for all of your great advice.No, I am not finished with this project. I generally work on four things or so which justifies the "You're always bouncing from one thing to another" comments which I hear more than I like. Grin.Cutting to the chase: I HAVE discovered the functionality of the TapCon fasteners. I was skeptical at first, but they do work as advertised. And fortunately, I have not opened the tube of polyurethane so I can exchange it for the caulk that you suggested, NP-1 or SikaFlex. Hopefully, Lowe's will have one or the other. I have paint thinner so I'm in good shape in this regard.I have drilled 5/32" holes for the TapCons so I will definitely use them in addition to the caulk you recommended. The fasteners are good insurance.One question: from the attached image, I want to lay down some concrete to fill this gap. Can I just use concrete or should I use thin-set?Regards,
Phillip
I used thinset in a similar situation about 12 years ago. It's still good.The one thing that bothers me about your pic (well, there are a few, but the main one) is that it appears (assuming this picture is from the outside) that that visible slab is just a poured apron, not a part of the foundation and not "communicating" with the inside slab. If that's the case it's likely to move about quite a bit, and you need a flexible connection between it and the threshold, the the threshold being primarily supported by the inside slab.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Dan,Thanks for getting back to me.I hear you on the "a few things that bother you" comment. That's how these projects go: She says, "Oh, I just want you to do this one little thing.", but in our minds, we think, 'Sure I can do that one little thing for you, but of course, before I can even begin, I'll have to do these two MAJOR things first, then we can get to your little thing'. Man, there's no end. I love it, really. Ha! So, yes, I know the rotted door frame is a sight. Fear not, my gray mass is working to keep from having to replace the bloody garage for this one 'little thing'.Back to the subject at hand. Yes, the photo is looking from the outside of the garage in. The external slab/apron is about 8' x 20', so I promise you, if it does move, it won't be much. This patio slab is actually about 3/4" below the garage floor, so no 'communicating' going on there. They musta worked real hard to make that happen. In my mind, it would have made more sense to (1) have matched the patio apron with the garage floor, and (2), they should have given this patio slab a little slope to help move the water into the garden area rather than have it pool up. What do I know!So, to be sure, the threshold is held primarily by the garage slab (and the TapCons) and is hanging over the patio apron. And from what you're saying, it's thinset that I'll need to use. The rotten wood has got to go first thought. If I get really lucky, I may find some moulding stock that will match to outside of the door frame. If that happens, I can cut off 6" or so of the door frame and slap in some replacement wood, use some waterproof wood putty to blend it all in, prime and paint it, then do the thinset. Should be done by November, if all goes well. Kidding, of course. But, you're right (even though you didn't actually say as much), the rotten wood has to go.Thanks for your help.
Don't assume that the slab doesn't move. Frost can lift a slab like that an inch or more, and dry weather can drop it a half inch.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Good points. Maybe that's why the apron is now lower than the floor of the garaage? And we do get cold and hot weather around here. Thanks for that.
Can't really see it from that picture, but I suspect that the door frame is just simple jamb combined with standard brick mold. The jamb can be put together from 3/4" stock, gluing the stop in place. Unfortunately, brick mold comes in several different widths, but the profile is fairly standard.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Dan,You're probably correct about the door frame. The outer frame, or brick moulding is another story. It does not look terribly complicated so perhaps I can find a matching profile at our local Lowes/HD outlet when I go today. I'll keep you posted. Thanks for all your help.Phillip
I gotta give you credit for working at this vs just junking the door and installing a new one. While it certainly isn't "efficient" to invest the time you'll end up investing, it's a great way to learn, and there's a certain satisfaction from restoring something of this sort, creating something solid out of a rotten mess.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Dan,Funny you're saying this because a few chats back, I removed a sentence or two above how 'inexpensive' this DIY business really is. By that I meant, you begin one project and it leads to a massive restoration of historical proportions. It would take a Wall St. bean counter to discern whether or not any actual fiscal value was really gained in all of this effort. But do we really care to look at it this way? Probably not, and that I believe is just the point. All of these projects - large or small - just make us feel better about ourselves. My spin on it anyway.But, in my case, if the truth be known, all of this is probably in my DNA. My Grandparents raised me back in Santa Fe, NM many moons ago and, I'll tell you one thing, they were both extremely efficient about every aspect of their lives. If I left a light on in any room and walked out, I heard about it. Big time: "You don't waste anything, Phillip!" What I want to say here is that my Grandfather, after removing nails from one project, would straighten them on a very short slice of railroad track and store them away in one of his old wooden trays (that he made himself) for re-use later on. I remember all of this like it was yesterday, so it's very easy for me not to waste anything and feel good about doing it. So, I hear you loud and clear when you say, " ... creating something solid out of a rotten mess."Take care.
Actually, I'm sure a lot of the pros wish they had the time to devote to piddling little projects like this. It challenges your creativity and gives you as much of a sense of accomplishment as, say, building a good-sized shed from new materials.(Of course, the shed may win if it provides an excuse to buy more tools.)
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Of course, the shed may win if it provides an excuse to buy more tools.)
Now that is a truth if ever I heard one!
Think I made a new convert out a nephew this weekend. One more weekend helping me and I'll have him on path to rightousness. My niece nd sister are gonna kill me if I keep this up :)
Dave
Dan,Can you expound on why thinset is preferrable to regular concrete mix for filling below my threshold? I'm not quite to that point yet, but I'd like to learn a bit more on this.Thanks for your help,
Phillip
"Regular" sackcrete uses peagravel with does not work well in thin sections. IIRC it needs to be a minium of 1".Sand mix is cement with sand that I think will go down to 1/4".Now there are patching mixes that will go down to feather edge. But you need to look at the max heigh. Often 1/2", but can use multiple layers..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill, thanks for your comments.I've used concrete with peagravel and just plain old sand, but I only need a thin slice of concrete between my threshold and an exterior apron. I just didn't understand what made thinset so special for this particular application. With all the help I've received here, I'm good to go.Thanks again.
Thinset has very high adhesion and can be run out to a feather edge. There are other patching cements with similar characteristics, but thinset is a known quantity and available almost anywhere.If I'm recalling the setup here, though, it's a garage slab with the threshold mostly on that slab but extending over an apron/patio slab by maybe an inch and a half. Given that that apron is "suspect" in terms of motion, I'd try to support the threshold as fully as possible on the garage slab (eg, use thinset or whatever to make slab flat/level under the threshold, all the way out to the edge) and then use something like butyl or urethane caulk to install a rot-resistant wood filler strip between the overhanging part of the threshold and the apron. This will support the edge of the threshold to a degree but also provide some "give", and the strip can be easily dug out if the apron seems to be moving too much.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Dan,Thanks for the perfectly clear explanation. I went ahead and purchased a bag of interior/exterior thinset a few days ago: I just wasn't clear as to why thinset was superior to regular ready-mix. I'm assuming, from your comments, that I should taper the thinset from the threshold to the exterior apron at a rather steep angle. Too flat of a taper would seem to be too weak and susceptible to breakage.I'll post some photos when done. I appreciate the help.Phillip
I'm sorry, but I'm not following you. You still planning to fill between the apron and the threshold lip? If so, yes, you'd form it a maybe an 60-80-degree angle to horizontal.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Dan, that is correct. Sorry I wasn't clear on that, but what you said is exactly what I plan to do. Thanks for clearing that up.Regards.
Do note that most of us here are reluctant to endorse a solid connection between that apron and the threshold, due to the likely motion of the apron.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Hey Phillip, sorry it took so long to get back to you.
One thing first....
DO NOT USE PAINT THINNER (mineral spirits) to clean the area....
Mineral spirits is very oily and will only combat your efforts to get a good adhesion between the urethane and the concrete. I guess I should have been a bit more insistant about using laquer thinner. I think I pay about $4 for a quart at lowes, it's worth it.
And speaking of lowes... They do not sell np-1 or sikaflex, but The last time I was trying to buy urethane caulk there I did find some, it was an off-brand, and I think it was labeled as driveway crack sealer, but as long as it's a one part urethane it will work. If you want to get the name brand stuff you need to go to a contractor supply store, or some rental places sell it. Rental place as in the place where you can rent a backhoe, or a jack hammer, or a wedding gazebo, or a punch bowl for the wedding... etc.
I'm going to defer to Dan on the thinset vs. concrete question here, Masonry is not my forte... in fact it's something that I actively avoid... It always seems like it might be way too much like work to me hee hee....
Regarding the repairing of the rotted door frame. My favorite method of this type of repair is to use regular old bondo. the same stuff that you use for auto body work.
It takes a few applications and a lot of sanding and shaping, but given enough tenacity and grunt work you can pretty much make the repair invisible by the time you repaint everything. and the benefit is, that area will never rot again so it's actually better than replacing it with wood.
Have fun! And let me know if you have any more questions or if I wasn't clear on anything." If I were a carpenter"
Hey, Mark ...No problem on the 'took so long part'. I'm still fussing with the rotting wood issue, so the threshold aspect of this won't come until the very last.I looked for the two brands of caulk that you mentioned and you're right - I couldn't find them at Lowe's. I did see concrete sealer or something like that, but since it wasn't what I was looking for, I just passed it by. I have to go back for a pick handle, so I'll take a look to see if that caulk is one-part urethane. I may have some lacquer thinner. I'll check for that also.Now, to the thinset. I did get a bag of that. What I got was a bag of 'multipurpose thinset' which is for interior and exterior use. And it came in a nice designer color: concrete gray. So, that should work just fine. In my mind, I always thought that thinset was for adhering ceramic tile to floors or shower stalls. Guess not or else it can be used wherever its particular properties will fit the job. I'm not a concrete guy either. I'll do it, but that's all I can say. I hope Dan hasn't abandoned us ...When at Lowe's, I found the brick moulding that matched perfectly what exists on my garage door. Lucked out there. I like the Bondo idea, but the sanding to match the moulding doesn't sound like fun. As a kid, I used Bondo to keep my Chevy looking cool and dent free. Back then it had a nice smell, the Bondo that is. That old Chevy used to smell like burning oil. Not really, but it did use quite a bit of oil. I can still see that old A&W drive-in. Ah, those really were the good old days. Ha, ha ...The idea of wood never rotting again is a great thought. Too bad they don't make a Bondo paint ... Hmm-mmmm ...Anyway, thanks for getting back to me. I'll keep you posted.Phillip