What are building codes really based on?
More thoughts from Scotland, where I’m working on my daughter’s loft (attic) conversion. The electrician just wired the rooms upstairs. These are conventionally (stick) framed (which they call “timber framing” here!) He had complete access to the framed walls from both sides, no DW was up, etc. So, this seems to me like “new work”. In the States we would have to staple cable every few feet, within 8 in. of a box, the boxes to be fastened to a stud, etc. Here, this licensed electrician, working completely to code, simply drapes the cables any old way, and the boxes are attached to the DW halfway between studs. He takes care to mount the boxes 300 mm above the floor, which is code here.
I’m not exactly in the third world here. Scotland has very stringent building regulations. So my question is, What are building codes really based on? If they were based on reality. e.g. the laws of physics, you would expect them to be about the same everywhere. But the variation here seems to be more a matter of national culture.
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Based on who is buying the Scotch for the inspector?
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He's in Scotland. It's whisky, not Scotch. You'd be sent to Dartmoor for that comment.
Nah, it's 'Water of Life'
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and it's 'nay', not 'nah'...."there's enough for everyone"
Ayuh!;)
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Building codes are based on safety. The code is written by a board of experts from business and government. Of course, there are many different ways of achieving a safe installation and different bodies will prescribe different methods of achieving it. I'm sure codes evolved with the development of the art differently in each culture.
I'm guessing the reason for stapling cable in the States is to keep them from moving into harm, for example, being pierced by a nail or resting against something hot. It's just as conceivable, though, that if cabling is strung loose it would move out of the way of an errant nail, and one could depend on the workmanship of the electrician to keep cables from being run too near other hazards.
In the States old work boxes are attached to drywall, which doesn't seem any more or less safe to me.
Having a code mandated height seems to appeal to a sense of consistency more than safety. I suppose one could argue that only inches from a floor might expose a plug to more damage. However, the nice thing about not having a code height here is that outlets can be mounted higher to accommodate an aging or handicapped population, and thus could be safer than mounting them as low as the Scottish code requires.
I'm not sure what codes are based on but I can tell you they are written by people who don't do the work. That's why a lot of them don't make much sense. Then they are enforced by people who can't or aren't good at doing the work.
I always thought that the code requiring AFIs in bedrooms was required by the people who make AFI Breakers.
And the code requiring fire suppression systems was written by the people who sell fire suppression systems.
Sounds sarcastic, but I'm willin to bet that there is some truth to it.
I'm with you on that.
Plus, lets not forget the insurance companies. They drive alot of unnecessary code requirements (overbuilt walls and roofs for example). It drives up the construction prices and lowers the number of claims but it doesn't lower our premiums.
What we gain in grip, we lose in touch. R. Kipling
"but it doesn't lower our premiums. "Check again!I know there is a series of questions asked for home insurance. several of them will make a diff in what rating is which affects the price you pay. there is a definite discount on mine for smoke detectors I know as a fact. There is a discount poossible for fire suppression system installed. And since this is an island with limited fire department by comparison to some other locations, some houses cannot get insurance without installing this or that.
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Hi Piffin. thanks for the suggestion. I will check it out.
What we gain in grip, we lose in touch. R. Kipling
on my loft project.. have'n sprinklers as well as all new wiring and new roof lowered what the condo owners will pay...
BUT make'n the building non smoking lowered the rates by almost HALF
i do think most codes are manufacturer or insurance driven
p
I've found that the fire supression code changes are often a result of knee jerk reaction to a tragedy in which there are fire-related deaths.......
I strongly believe that the code exists to justify the existence of the boards and commitees that write them. I think that most of the safety issues were worked out a long time ago...How does the max rise on a set of stairs change from 8-1/4" to 8" in a given year? Are they going to tell me that thru some miraculous research, They determined that a high % of people are injured on stairs with an 8-1/4"rise as compared to 8"? BS.
And as to overbuilt wall and roof assemblies, I'm curious as to whether anyone has ever done a family tree on the ownership of Simpson. Does anybody else make all this hardware now required on houses all over the country? Not saying some of it is'nt a good idea with merit, but like the fire supresssion issue, alot of the issues the hardware adresses are a result of the OLD code not being enforced....
Bing
I strongly believe that the code exists to justify the existence of the boards and commitees that write them
AND the fact that many on those boards are manufacturer's reps. -- e.g. arc fault CB req.
""I've found that the fire supression code changes are often a result of knee jerk reaction to a tragedy in which there are fire-related deaths......."" Probably partially correct in your assessment, I would forgo the "Knee Jerk " part however. Events like these have driven Fire Codes , and as a result have protected millions of people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroquois_Theater_Fire http://ech.cwru.edu/ech-cgi/article.pl?id=CSF http://www.hcnonline.com/articles/2008/10/21/tomball_magnolia_potpourri/opinion/web_mag_fire_chf_col.txt http://www.csun.edu/~ghy7463/mw2.html That is a very short list. I am aware of many small towns that completely burned to the ground not once, but several times as a result major fire. Those events are pretty much history now , unless the fire is of such magnitude that the entire surrounding area is also caught up in a conflagration. So yes Fire Suppression is driven often by a reaction to tragedy.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Could someone explain arc fault breakers and their purpose. As I understand it they are required anywhere someone might sleep (bedroom etc.) so if an arc fault occurs the house wont burn down while you are sleeping.1. How will this help you if an arc fault occurs in the dining room (where they are not required) while you are asleep in the bedroom?2. What is an arc fault exactly? Two wires touching that aren't supposed to? Or is there more to it than that?
Edited 3/2/2009 1:07 am ET by snap pea
Building codes are well intentioned, but often flawed. And they're frequently written by committees made up of people who work for companies that sell products that are covered by the codes. No conflict of interest there, is there? For example, about ten years ago, the fiberglass folks tried to get cellulose written out of the codes.Another problem is that when something gets codified, it's tough to get it out of the code. Crawlspace and attic venting are two examples. In some instances, they can work, but in others they're counterproductive. In humid climates, for example, venting a crawlspace makes it wetter. These requirements came about based on research done in the 1930s. Even then the efficacy of venting was questionable, but they didn't have alternative materials we have now, and somebody had to do something. So, while the entire construction industry knows how to build better structures without venting roofs and foundations, the code forces us to vent. This is largely because there's no interest group that stands to make money by removing venting from the code. BTW, I don't make this stuff up. Get Bill Rose's book, Moisture in Buildings. Great science and a sniff of history.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
Our local jursidiction has adopted that all circuits must be arc fault protected except dedicated circuits (ie. appliances). I believe it was adopted by NEC in 2008 and our city lawyers do not want any liability even though all the building inspectors and electrical contractors in the city argued against it.
An arc fault breaker protects, in addition to drawing too much current as all automatic circuit breakers do, against arc faults. An arc fault is a short circuit that generates an electrical spark. Such breakers are required for circuits serving bedrooms because of a number of fires and deaths resulting from arc faults. In bedrooms people often have corded appliances (lamps, radios, etc.) plugged into outlets behind furniture and bedding. A spark resulting from a frayed cord can set the bed and room on fire which burns so fast that the occupants suffer severe injuries before being aroused by a working smoke detector, if they are aroused at all.
Wayne,
Have you seen any numbers on actual deaths caused by arc faults on an annual basis? Just Curious.
Bruce
No, I haven't. Sometimes in the introduction to the code they give those statistics. OSHA, for example, will give actual numbers, such as there are so many deaths and so many serious injuries from, say, scaffolding, each year and they feel that 80% (or whatever) could be avoided by following such and such safety practice. I'm not sure how the NFPA does it for the electrical code.
Maybe I should clarify a point;
I agree 100% that "knee jerk" may not be the right choice in a number of those cases. Historically, the fire code has been changed, rightfully so, as a result of tragedies such as the ones you posted. My point really adresses more recent events.
I'm a firefighter in Warwick, RI; I responded to the Station nightclub fire the morning after. I've seen up close the damage fire can do, to life and property. In the case of the Station fire, the state fire code was completely overhauled. In many cases, the changes were smart and needed, but many have put small business owners out of business unnecessarily.
Ultimately, the fire in question took 100 lives and injured hundreds of others permanently, but the fact of the matter is, if the code in place at the time had been adhered to, the life lost would have been a small fraction of what it was, in fact, there might have been no deaths at all. Egg crate foam sound proofing went un-noticed by the inspector from West Warwick, capacity #'s were skewed based on square footage, etc, etc. If the soundproofing foam wasn't there......Probably no fire at all....
My point here, I guess, is that in this instant, the code in place would have saved everyone there. In addition, The blame lies with the band manager for setting off pyrotechnics, (with or without permission from the club owners, depending on who you believe) and the club owners themselves, for saving about $500 buying foam that wasn't fire resistant.........
I agree, tho, that fires such as the iroqois, Cocoanut grove in Boston, the supper club (forget where that one was) all brought about good changes.
Here's a point to ponder for everyone, tho; At what point do they make res sprinklers mandatory in new construction? Nobody can argue that it wouldn't save lives, the issue is the $. Now I know the argument would be that the % of fatal fires is vastly more in older buildings, but the new ones will be old one day, won't they? I also know that new houses are built to a much stricter electrical code, thereby reducing the fires down the road, but the age of the house doesn't play a part in whether or not a kid lights a book of matches on his bed, right?
Curious as to general opinion on this one. Hope this doesn't count as a hijack....;)
Bing
Here in some locations, determined by size of struture, distance for hydrants and availbility of water, sprinklers are already required.
Purpose?
Rural homes sitting well off the road and distant availability of water with a fire can cause far more than just building damage or loss of owners lives. The risk is to the greater community if a fire starts in the home and spreads to the surrounding woodland. Back to the old, individual rights vs. societies rights.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
DW can stand for "drywall" or "dishwasher" (just helping the readers)
The new codes are built around two things, people in wheelchairs and infants.
I usually carry both around with me in case I can't decipher the code.
don't you mean you carry all four around ? ...
drwall, dishwashers, people in wheelchairs, and infants ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
LOL, first I thot he meant both code books. Now I don't know what he meant!
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I was just injecting a little harmless humor in the thread, I guess I was temporarily in a good mood, but from my experience with these new codes, a lot of what they're designed around really does boil down to infants and people in wheelchairs.
Here's one example, I was on a large commercial project, building one of these professional type office complexes. All the doors have to be 36" wide, to accomodate the size of a wheelchair, the bathrooms, same thing, all designed around handicap people in wheelchairs. And don't forget handicap parking spaces...
And here's a more, well known example, deck railings. The baluster spacings can't be wider than 4" or an infants head can get stuck. And the railings have to be no less than 36" high, again, designed with a small child in mind.
Building codes are just as influenced by culture and history as building techniques are. Like other laws they also reflect our irrational fears, preoccupations and prejudices. Why do Japanese hardhats look like climbing helmets? Are North American children inherently better climbers that they need higher railings to protect them? What percentage of houses is a society willing to see burn down before they institute certain fire suppression provisions? Unless there has been a problem noted in Scottish houses due to the wires, they have probably never seen a reason to do any different.
Asking a general question ... let's try for a general answer ....
Part of code rules come from physics, common sense, and experience. For example, handrails are set at more or less the same height in every code, and stairs are similar. Span tables for joists are similar.
There is no denying the 'political' element, though. For example, a code may require all buildings to have tan earth-colored walls and tile red roofs. That's purely a design choice.
Naturally, the Code will be influenced by how it's made. If you allow for public participation, folks will each have their own causes - and some of those will be adpoted.
Probably the least recognized part of the process are the limits we place on ourselves. For example, many codes have requirements for public places that you simply would never consider having for a private home. To what extent folks recognize limitations to their codes is a major factor.
Codes are an attempt to decide where to draw the line between safety and economy, and the line is neither straight nor logical in many cases.
"Safety first"? This oft-repeated line is usually backed up with "even if it saves one life, it's worth it." That position seems unassailable, but none of us really practices it. Not really.
For example, it's well-known and documented that one of the major causes of serious injury and death in houses is falling down stairs. If we really practiced "safety first", we would ban stairs in any home or building. Instead, we've drawn the line that the economical use of our available space overrides the safety aspect, and we allow stairs, but try to build them safely.
The process for developing codes is not perfect, needless to say. The committees that are first to screen new proposals are supposed to be made up of a balanced representation from industry, labor, code officials, utilities, etc. Their recommendations are supposed to be based on technical considerations only. They try, but the usual mix of self-interest, limited knowlege, pet peeves, etc. also find its way into the decision. Their decision is not the end of the process for revising the code, but this is not the place to go into the whole convoluted path that eventually comes down to a revised code--the music that the rest of us must dance to, like it or not.
Gripes to code enforcers are usually answered by: "If you don't like it, get involved; submit a code change proposal." Which is sort of like saying, "If you don't like that pothole in the road, stop what you're doing, get out and fix it." A noble idea, but most of us must simply decide whether to go around it to the right or left, because hitting it head on will only make things worse, and we don't have the time/resources to fix it.
Too bad. It's one more thing in life that's not all that fair. The bright side is that, at least codes help to level the playing field--your competitors must play by the same rules. (I know, I know: there are examples where the inspector holds you to a higher standard than he did for the job down the street. Any experiences to prove it?)
Regarding your "safety first" post: A good example is vaccinations. We are all taught these are good things and a must to protect our children. But are they always? Take the new gardasil (sp), which is tied to a lot of deaths and severe injuries. Who says they are good? Do people actually look into it, or do they take the word of a medical practitioner? Many vaccines are promoted through advertising and lobbying campaigns that could finance small nations, then medical personnel pick up the chants, relying on the promotions given in the guise of medical reports.These reports point to the number of lives saved by the vaccines, which might be 1 out of 1000 people. However, they often ignore the injuries caused by the vaccines, including deaths, that may reach 1 in 100.This is not to say all vaccines are bad, or that some do not benefit societies, but imposing something because of a single incident is questionable.To be fair, the majority of codes, unlike vaccines, are not going to contribute to deaths and injuries by other causes, but they can.That which I least want to do is oft that which I most should do. And I can't afford cheap.
Edited 3/5/2009 12:58 am ET by dejure
When I lived in the UK (20+ years ago) code prohibited electrical outlets in any bathroom except for specially designated shaver outlets.
Light switches were only allowed in the bathroom if constructed of non-insulating cord with a mechanical break in the cord so that if the cord got wet, there was no complete path for the current.
Metal window frames had to be grounded. When I moved to France, I was astonshihed to see outlets in a bathroom, and now I'm here I'm just used to it!
"When I lived in the UK (20+ years ago)"
Hence the screen name? Not many people remember the Wombles anymore. I remember that in Glasgow in the 70s when someone made a rubbish play during a football match he would be greeted to a derisive chorus of "Yer a Womble son!"
In the states, most codes are private and not public law. However, some geniuses in each governmental entity "adopts" that private code, rather than forming their own.
While I think expert guidance is a great thing, I must ask myself how it is our system of laws could have been so bastardized that private, for profit businesses' codes not readily available to the general public could be called law. These codes are very expensive, and not generally available to the public. For example, I've been too many law libraries whereat no plumbing code, electrical code or other relative code could be found. Often, a public library doesn't carry them either. As such, you find yourself wandering off to the local planner to view them.
You can copy your state laws and codes from now until long after hell freezes over. Not so with these copyrighted documents.
To say I find this an annoyance is an understatement. If only I had the time........
[grumble, gripe, moan]
Free codes, or some anyway.
http://bulk.resource.org/codes.gov/
Courtesy of the missing Bill Hartman.
New NEC and IRC are here.
Joe H
Thanks. Of course, a review of many municipality's sites reveals they merely adopt private codes that are protected by copy right.That which I least want to do is oft that which I most should do. And I can't afford cheap.
Edited 3/7/2009 9:43 pm ET by dejure
I was in a bookstore today and took a look at who is on the committee for writing the National Electric Code in the U.S. The front of the code book has twelve pages listing the name and affiliation of each member. Someone asked about arc flash protection, so I jotted down the affiliation of the members responsible for section 210 which includes arc flash protection. If anyone wants more information, it's in the front of the code book.
The member affiliations for section 210 were International Association of Electrical Inspectors, Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE), National Association of Home Builders (NAHB), New York City Department of Buildings, University of Houston, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW), Underwriters Lab (UL), American Chemistry Council, National Electrical Manufacturers Association (NEMA), Electric Power and Light Group, MEGA Power Electrical Services Inc., National Electrical Contractors Association, Independent Electrical Contractors Inc. Non voting members were from the Canadian Standards Association (CSA) and the Consumer Product Safety Commission.