Why aren’t more builders using SIP’s?
Hey all,
New guy to Breaktime, but not Finehomebuilding. I’ve been residential framing for 6 years in Iowa, and am thinking about branching out on my own. I’ve only framed for other people, never bid a framing job, figure I could sort it out though. Can any of you framer’s tell me why we’re still building stick built houses? Am I crazy to imagine my exterior wall package showing up on a truck? Remember, I’m not the top of the food chain here: an experienced grunt with a stair calculator and not enough fear of heights. This still puts me in the hourly wage category, no bids going well (or poorly, yes). If the framing subs are just making too much cash to think of changing their system. Well, I can deal with that.
Any words, would be appreciated. After all, I don’t want to hear what I have to say, I want to know what you guys say.
Ben
Replies
Welcome to Breaktime.
Some people can't imagine why anyone would want to build with anything but ICFs. Others (like you) think SIPs are great. Then there are those who like stick framed walls with icynene insulation.
Everyone has their favorite - There's no one single "best" system.
Some of it may be that there aren't reliable SIP manufacturers in all parts of the country. Around here they want a big deposit to lock you into buying from them, then God knows when you'll get your panels. Delays are very much the norm. So I don't see many of them, and don't expect to anytime soon.
You know, BossHog, that's a really good way to look at it. Everybody's got their opinion. I heard it said once, "Where you stand depends on where you sit." From the other posts I've read it seems there's decent reasons to sit on both sides. I'm beginning to see why they're not taking off, but not sure the reasons are going to stand up forever. I suspect both manufacturers and builders will have to give a little.
So, (in no certain order), cost, plumbing/electrical, communication with the subs to follow, ants, foundation issues. These are problems that we face already (how many times do I need to explain that in-deck beams are the devil). I've not heard of technology issues (ie. delaminating, structural failures, etc.) That's more what I was afraid of.
Edited 12/29/2006 11:46 pm ET by CleanCut
There have been some well documented failures due to rot. Alaska had several instances. You need to get the details right on the joints, especially where you have lumber splines in roof applications. Proper sealing against water vapor and a HRV is important.
I'm a homeowner that contracted my own home, not a builder, and I thought the whole process was pretty simple. I was very thorough checking the foundation forms to ensure they were in the proper location, and my foundation sub was excellent. It turns out that had it been off a bit, cutting panels on site was fairly easy. If you are iring a builder to do this, I would find one that has used them before. The biggest problem I had was trying to teach old dogs new tricks.
It seems that SIPs are catching on. The manufactures and installers I have talked to all said there business is booming. SIPs currently take up about 1% of the new home market and it’s not just custom homes either. There is at least one builder that operates in the 1000s of units per year range and they offer their customers a choice; SIP or stick no price difference.
<!----><!----> <!---->I do think training has a huge impact on how people view SIPs. Planning is certainly key. If carpenters, electricians, and plumbers walk on site with no heads-up about how to work with SIPs there are going to be some big potential problems. However, I have talked with at least two electricians that actually prefer to work with SIPs and don’t charge any extra.jross -- FH Editorial
http://www.sipbuilding.wordpress.com
" in-deck beams are the devil"Say what?
I suppose they're called different things depending on which part of the country you build in. But any time a beam is placed in the floor system (floor joists hang off the in-deck beam, as opposed to resting on top of a below-deck beam) it creates a devil of a time for plumbers and the HVAC guys. We end up having to drop a soffit below it anyway to get heat ducts around the offensive blockage.
Communication beforehand? Better luck just dropping the beam below the floor system. Nobody talks around here.
Did this clear anything up?
OK, got it...
I'm always amazed at how many times I walk down a basement stair, right into a main I-beam that just meets stair code (sometimes) but I still have to duck under
foresight is everything.....
BossHog,
When I first looked into SIP's there were only a handfull of suppiers available and shipping costs affected things dramatically.
As time went on more and more suppliers came available and even some relatively modest lumberyards were making them..
You need three things to make SIP's..
OSB (preferably with Borite in it)
foam. (you can either make or buy that)
and pressure..
Stop by a SIP manufacturer and you'd be amazed how basic the process is..
You have infinately more investment in your truss plant than a SIP manufacturer has in his plant.. yet local lumberyards are competing against you making trusses..
Maybe you should suggest the idea to your boss?
Frenchy,
You’ve touched on a potential problem. While the process is straight forward there are a lot of nuances of manufacturing SIPs that make the installation go easier down the line. If any person with a vacuum press and a big shop can make them how do you know your getting a quality product?
<!----><!----> <!---->A buy or SIPs whether builder, contractor, or home owner should check out the manufacturer and at the very least make sure they submit to third party testing.jross -- FH Editorial
http://www.sipbuilding.wordpress.com
jross,
Sorry it doesn't even require a vacumm press! Some glue and a simple heated press is all!
Word of mouth is the best standard I found.. I wound up going with the biggest manufacturer of SIPs because the plant was close enough that there was a hugh differance in shipping costs..
Can somfly by night outfit make SIP's poorly?
sure!
used to happen often in the early days.. back in the 30's 40's etc.. However pretty much since the washout of the 70's in general most SIP makers are reputable and make a decent product..
All you really need is to know what the foam is, to know what the OSB is and to know what sort of pressure and "glue" they use.. Vist the plant watch what tolerances they use to ensure the panels are well made and you are gold!
--All you really need is to know what the foam is, to know what the OSB is and to know what sort of pressure and "glue" they use.. Vist the plant watch what tolerances they use to ensure the panels are well made and you are gold!--
That’s really to my point. Get yourself educated about the SIP process and the manufacturer you choose.
<!----><!----> <!---->
Yes making SIPs is pretty easy but there are still SIP failures from panels made in someone’s garage. What’s more, the bad stories that people tell tend to stem from a lack of communication between the manufacturer and the builder and a lack of knowledge about the product; from the architect all the way down the line to the subs. The better organized the manufacturer is the better chance that the whole installation will go smoothly.
jross -- FH Editorial
http://www.sipbuilding.wordpress.com
Edited 1/3/2007 4:12 pm ET by jross
jross,
You make a good point, education is really the key.. my SIP manufacturer carefully gave me a complete set of instructions and answered countless questions that I had. I'm sure there have been failurs in the past, the SIP website listed several and what to do to prevent them from happening again.
I may have overstated the ease which SIP's can be made. Like anything done well it looksa great deal easier than it is, never-the-less we aren't speaking about rocket science here.. There really should be no reason SIP's need to be shipped a thousand miles as they sometimes currantly are..
Agreed,
One of the biggest things holding SIPs back is the lack of information about the product. As opposed to a lack of product performance which is something which is not really a problem for SIPs.jross -- FH Editorial
http://www.sipbuilding.wordpress.com
Other than the newness factor & fears of the new (they are not that new, btw) the major complaint I hear is that the foundation/subfloor framing must be perfect, since the panels are inflexible. Address this issue, and they make sense if the price is right.
The other issue is that there is often a premium to be paid, and most homeowners won't pay it. My house is ICF, and the appraiser added nothing to the value for that, even though I am heating my house for a fraction of what my neighbors do.
I have heard that drywall was invented 30 years before it came into common usage - hang in there...
Brian,
Whoever told you the myth that floors had to be perfect wasn't aware of the techniques used to compensate for problems..
I darn sure didn't make my floor perfect!
I built on the old foundation which was dramatically out of square and level.. No problem.. I corrected as I went..
I think if you get a set of plans and get a price for the SIPs needed you may get an idea of why they aren't more common. I priced them for a 28' x 40' 1 1/2 story shop and got a quote of $35,000 delivered on-site. No labor or crane to set them up, just a pile of SIPs.
The other issue that was pointed out was the masonry requirements. There was a show on Home & Garden where they were building the "House of the Future". Foundation plans were goofed up and the foundation was something like 8" off. HUGE problem.
There is also an issue with running plumbing and electrical.
Steve.
I recently built a house with SIPs and many of the things being warned about in previous posts aren't that big a deal. A foundation being 8" off is just as big a deal on a framed house as a panel house. Panels are very easy to cut on site and we had zero issues with plumbing and electrical. You have to plan ahead a bit but even if you don't electrical chases are easy to cut. I also thingk you will find that the prices are not as bad as some have stated. My precut panel package was 30k for a 1700 sq ft 1 1/2 story home with anothe 4ft sip wall for the drive under garage. Panels fit together very well and there was little site cutting needed.
There is also an issue with running plumbing and electrical.
My last house client's previous house was SIPS. Cost him a heavy penalty for plumbing and electrical. Then the carpenter ants moved in.
He chose concrete the next time. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Borate treated SIPs will pretty much take care of the ant problem and plumbing shouldn't be in exterior wall anyway. As far as electrical the panles can have chase already cut in them according to your specs of you plan ahead, or they have standard chases in them. We had no problems wiring my house.
Good it worked for you. I've nothing against SIPs, other than cost. Helped a friend top his roof with some. Worked well, if pricey.
In Virginia, plumbing is often on an outside wall. Certainly I have some. As will my next house.
My client had a poor experience, which is exactly why SIPs aren't more accepted, what this thread was about. IIRC, his plumbing/wiring penalty was 12% of the total house cost.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
VaTom,
I suppose there isn't much cold weather in Virginnia compared to here so in that situation you could put plumbing in a wall.. just hog out what you need and we all know plumbers know how to do that and fill back in with spray foam!
Cover with apiece of plywood and it's probably a lot better than what they do to stick built houses..
I suppose there isn't much cold weather in Virginnia compared to here
Frenchy, no reason to suppose, look it up. Minneapolis IIRC, you don't seem to want to fill in your profile and this is exactly the reason to do so. Anyhow, Minneapolis has 8382 heating degree-days. We have 4166. Average annual snowfall here is 12".
The question wasn't why northern builders aren't using SIPS. It was why builders aren't using SIPS. We also have 1131 cooling degree-days, another reason to insulate. Certainly it's a mild 4 season climate. And no accident we were sensible enough to choose it.
You seem to think I'm attacking SIPS. Wrong. They clearly can be better than most stick built houses here. Cost will obviously depend on the builder.
This one builder (that employed me for 4 yrs) and the HO (that I subsequently built a PAHS shell for) both concluded SIPS were a bad idea. The subs also clearly weren't prepared, probably the house was poorly planned. It was incredibly expensive, compared to the other houses they built. Cost plus: financing turned into a nightmare.
Took the better part of 10 yrs before the SIPS house assessment (and appraisal) came up to construction cost. The PAHS house appraised 50% higher than construction cost immediately on completion. Guess what, that HO isn't going to recommend SIPS anytime soon. Incompetent SIPS contractor? I'd assume so.
Me? I'm neutral. Who's building and what's it going to cost?
Don't know why it had severe ant problems, other than an attractive place for them to live. The woods are full of carpenter ants here. Hasn't been a problem for my stick built outbuildings. And yet I was happy to drag home several full panels and scraps from the roof I helped with. Used the scraps in my lumber storage building around the solar kiln. Much better than fiberglass. And easier for me to install.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
VaTom,
I hope you don't feel that I'm attacking you.. I've tried very hard to keep the tone of my posts friendly and informative.
I admit that I'm a fan but I clearly understand why they aren't more common.. if 1% of the houses that are built are SIP's panels then 99% of all subs have no experiance with them.. Fear of the unknown!
An analogy, If you've never flown an airplane before the first time you do it's scary.. Yet with training flying is safer than driving..
I can see with your temps that the payoff would take twice as long as our payoff does. Therefore you have half of the motivation to learn the technology.. (sorry that my background information isn't currant.. I periodically go and update it and still it remains blank, I wonder what I'm doing wrong..)
The only group doing any promotion here is the ICF folks.. They command a 2% premium even though they privately tell me that most of that is profit. ICF construction amounts to 2% here in Minnesota while SIP's amount to much less than 1% Some of the big players don't even have a booth at the home shows, so how are people supposed to learn about the benefits and start a demand for them?
I hope you don't feel that I'm attacking you..
I can see with your temps that the payoff would take twice as long as our payoff does. Therefore you have half of the motivation to learn the technology..
Frenchy, number one, I'm not a GC. Number two, PAHS has proven to me (and the HO in question) far superior to stick built or SIPs houses. Neither of which strike me as applicable for PAHS. What I related was one experience with a reputable upscale builder and one HO, answering the original question of this thread: Why aren't more builders using SIP's?
ICFs aren't in my future either. As past threads have shown (thank you Cloud), they are inferior to insulation solely on the outside of the mass, as I prefer.
Some of the big players don't even have a booth at the home shows, so how are people supposed to learn about the benefits and start a demand for them?
Changing the buying public's mind is not something I aspire to. A major west coast concrete contractor tried to connect me with a Maryland archy for the purpose of promoting my construction. Not going to happen. For SIPs fans as yourself, the best method is a good example. Not unlike what I'm doing with my much-further-from-mainstream PAHS.
Not unlike my SIPs example, which I only brought up to answer the original question here, I know of a failed PAHS. I also know why it failed. Not a problem to explain to anybody interested. No reason to resort to crappy excuses like:
"Myth"
You can do better.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
VaTom,
I hope that you won't take my carefull explantions as something of an attack. I honestly don't mean to do so..
I feel certain that if we were right at the site of the home in question we'd quickly reach agreement..
Let me agree with you to this respect..
Is it possible that a contractor not familar with SIP construction made a mistake and carpenter ants thrived? Sure, yes, of course.. I can think of a dozen ways to make a mistake..
Can mistakes cause carpenter ant infestation in other types of framing? sure.. 99% of framing is stick framing.. Pest control companies couldn't survive on 1% of homes which may have a problem..
Is there something about SIP's which is more attractive to ants than other types of construction? I honestly cannot figure out what that would be.. Even stick built homes that have foam sprayed in the walls don't have any more of a problem with carpenter ants than any other method of insulation..Damp wood attracts carpenter ants far more than any particular brand or type of insulation does..
Do we have an agreement on the above?
Do we have an agreement on the above?
Frenchy, you're still defend SIPs, which I'm not attacking. I have no problem with carpenter ants. The only problem I mentioned was that one house, 100% of my SIPs experience. It had severe problems. Could it have been prevented with SIPs using borates? Likely, but they didn't. Makes for a poor reputation. Similar hit occurred with that Drivit application. It also failed. HO wouldn't consider Drivit any more than he'd consider SIPs. Together, a $120k nightmare. That was a decade after the original cost over-runs, blamed on SIPs.
I used a copper skin for him. It's better, cost no more.
This is what happens when you put out a product without appropriate testing. Borates common now? I certainly hope so. I expect you know of past forklift problems with similar history. Credibility suffers, in a big way.
What you seem to miss, or ignore, is what I've repeatedly stated, I offered one answer to the question "Why aren't more builders using SIP's?" In my example, it's clear why.
Can SIPs be successful? Of course. Economically reasonable? Depends, not primarily on climate, as my examples show.
BTW, termites are a much larger problem here than carpenter ants. That's what exterminators live on here. No termites in that SIPs house. Nor ants, after the soil around the house was thoroughly poisoned.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
VaTom,
I read with interest your further explaination regarding the Drivit application and now a light bulb is coming on.. With the drivit being a less than perfect seal moisture certainly could get to the OSB soften it and make it appetizing for an ant.
You are absolutely correct when you state that problems make for a poor reputation. You also mentioned the contracter had a good reputation, Reading between the lines a bit am I correct in assuming that this was the contractors first SIP home?
If that is the case then it's really a stretch to grant him the same reputation with a product he's not trained or experianced with. HE had problems clearly and there were cost overuns blamed on the use of SIP's. Hire a new contractor to stick build a house and likely you will have cost overuns and problems..
Approprate testing? You may have a decent point, however to my knowledge borates have been in use since sometime in the 60's. Read about freezer panels which SIP's originated from They were using borates early on to meet health code requirements..
I'm really very sorry that it took so much to fully understand what was happening.. thank you for your patience..
Mornin' frenchy,
That house was a nightmare from day 1. Driveway was ill-routed, requiring a crawler to drag the readymix and the post&beam delivery truck to the site. Yes, it was the contractor's first and last SIPs. They clearly had little idea what they were doing, contributing to the major cost over-runs. The Drivit problems appeared much later, a result of poor installation standards. Contractor's still building upscale houses. I went to a New Year's Day party in a recent one. Very nice. Not SIPs.
When the Drivit was repaired, there was no sign of OSB damage. From either pests or water. HO believed the ants preceeded the Drivit problems and were independent, but you can assume otherwise if you prefer.
Which is not to say that the folks living there now aren't enjoying the house. It's a very nice house. Just that the builder and the HO both found their sole SIPs experience lacking. Reasons are obvious.
Condemnation of SIPs? Not from me, but that builder and HO do. Both strongly believe SIPs are the reason for major cost over-runs. One (at least) believes there's an inherent carpenter ant risk. Neither wanted a repeat experiment, nor are they shy about expressing their opinions. You clearly disagree, but that isn't the point of this thread or I wouldn't have mentioned any of this.
HO now has a concrete house with immensely lower heat/ac requirement than his former SIPs (both have heat pumps), coupled with a skin that won't delaminate and a shell that isn't hospitable for bugs. During the delamination deliberations, when he got that astronomic Drivit replacement estimate, I suggested he patch and put up a For Sale sign. Or cover the whole mess with copper. Ultimately ended up with a new house, not directly a result of SIPs or Drivit problems.
Me? I'll take all the large SIPs scraps I can get. Zero chance of my paying the local SIPs price. They were OK for over-topping my friend's roof, but incredibly expensive. And an inferior substrate for attaching the copper roof, not that there's been a blow-off. BTW, that's another HO who wouldn't use (or recommend) SIPs again, even though he hasn't had a problem. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
VaTom,
Out of curiosity what are they paying per sq.ft for SIP's there? I just checked my old invoices and I started at $2.49 a sq.ft. for the six inch ones and $2.78 for the 11 inch ones.
When I made my last order in 2005 I paid $2.92 a sq.ft. for 6 inch and $3.14 for the 11 inch ones.. Now that was at the factory but small order sizes. (ten panels or so per trip). I suspect that had I placed the order for the whole house at once there would have been a decent discount involved and IF I placed orders regularly the price would go down from there..
When I made my last order in 2005 I paid $2.92 a sq.ft. for 6 inch and $3.14 for the 11 inch ones..
Wow. I see your attraction.
I've not priced them, no reason to. My buddy who over-roofed his place paid better than 3x that price. He's a comparison shopper but I don't know how many sources there are. His were trucked in from 3 1/2 hrs away.
Slow getting back. I'm absent for a day and this thread took on a life of its own. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"When I made my last order in 2005 I paid $2.92 a sq.ft. for 6 inch and $3.14 for the 11 inch ones..
Wow. I see your attraction.
I've not priced them, no reason to. My buddy who over-roofed his place paid better than 3x that price. He's a comparison shopper but I don't know how many sources there are. His were trucked in from 3 1/2 hrs away"
At these price differences I would accommodate the added depth in windows and doors and use the 11" panels. Seems trivial not to take on the added thermal and acoustical benefits resulting from the added depth (and R value).
Ok, now I cuaght this thread in midstream after someone pointed the thread out recently in another thread. Has anyone thought about using SIPs for flooring as well? A couple of years back TOH did a barn restoration where they jacked the barn up, tore out the old footings and flooring and replaced the footings and used SIPs for the flooring.
While I have been intrigued with SIPs for +20 years for the use of exterior walls and roofing, I have never considered them for flooring. I think this is because I have a liking to truss joist systems to pass mechanicals through without having to cut into something like I-joises, or accommodate via soffeting. Oh heck, what's another 16-18" in added exterior elevations. :)
"Mid-stream"? That was last January!
Surely you don't expect much comment from me on SIPs potential (given that I've never had any reason to price them), other than to ask if you're finally getting ready to dump that house which has provided you with so much to complain about.
Which is exactly what my client did with his SIPs house. Now occupied by a family who loved it, last I heard. They bought the expensive lot next door with the intention of keeping it unimproved. And probably fit right into that 1/12 (8.3%) of annual income to pay for their creature comforts. My guy, the seller, ended up with under .5% of his annual income, 30% smaller house. Everybody's happy.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"HO now has a concrete house with immensely lower heat/ac requirement than his former SIPs (both have heat pumps), coupled with a skin that won't delaminate and a shell that isn't hospitable for bugs."
Concrete = ICF???
Isn't foam a problem?
VaTom's no ICF fan - PAHS
(But I like them!)
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
Actually, I recommend ICFs. Just don't use them myself.
For anybody unwilling to do traditional forming, ICFs are the next best thing going. And they're better than traditional forming if, common here, insulation gets left off. Last time I priced them and compared with traditional forming including applied insulation, it looked like a wash.
Mismatch with PAHS, which requires earth-coupling. I could use them for my exposed walls with minimal energy drawback, but see no point. And the insulation I put on the outside of my exposed walls exceeds what I've seen on ICFs. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
It was why builders aren't using SIPS.
That may be the question to ask, but perhaps with one more refinement. Why aren't the big national builders using SIPs or panelization?
Those people would seem to be a logical group to use such things for their stock, virtually identical, repeating, floor plans. Don't they? Or, are the accountants running things just unwilling to spend this month what they could get back next quarter?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
CapnMac,
May I answer your question?
Best estimate of SIP paneled houses is 1% which means 99% of all subs etc. have no experiance..
Sure it may be better faster and cheaper but the fact that all of the people who build things have no experiance with it means nobody wants to train the workers only to have them go off and work for the competition..
have no experiance
And, that's likely the rub of it. The bean counters can't imagine it, ergo it's more expensive, so TB, PH, et al, aren't interested.
Or, I'm hoping that's the case, and it's not, that they can squeeze the per-subdivision framing crews a bit harder to use less good wiggle sticks, less-able framers to work more hours for less, combination.
Hmm, while a panelized or SIP tract-builder house has some appeal, I just had a thought of an entire street of them with only 25% of the flashing installed . . .
And, of course, from previous dicussions on the topic, you'll be aware I'm philosophically bent toward a hybrid system using SIPs for roof surfaces--which is a reflection of my climate.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
--Why aren't the big national builders using SIPs or panelization?--Some of them are. Pulte Homes offers stick or SIP with no cost difference.jross -- FH Editorial
http://www.sipbuilding.wordpress.com
Pulte Homes offers stick or SIP with no cost difference
Had not seen any down in Houston or over in Austin; but, I've also not extensively audited every PH development, either. I may have to check with some PMs I know.
Thanks for the heads-up.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
CapnMac,
Could be regional. I had it on good info that they building both SIPs and sticks in Virginian.
I'll check.jross -- FH Editorial
http://www.sipbuilding.wordpress.com
Search on "Pulte Home Sciences". Here is a pretty good article.http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55765-2004Dec10.htmlLooks like they are trying to really take a step forward on the entire construction process. Couldn't find anything about how the prices of the "manufactured" homes compare to the stick built but the articles give the impression that Pulte is just pricing them comparably to get the volume up and isn't worried about making any kind of profit at this point. Bill Pulte wouldn't even say how much the factory cost to build.Steve.
I put a call in to Pulte today but the guy who could really answer my questions was out until monday. I will get some answers then. Thanks for the articlejross -- FH Editorial
http://www.sipbuilding.wordpress.com
Pulte...isn't worried about making any kind of profit
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Sorry.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
man that's all propaganda and what Blue said about the profit thing..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
give the impression that Pulte is just pricing them comparably to get the volume up and isn't worried about making any kind of profit at this point
Bill is likely a good guy. His company, PH, though is in business to make money, not houses. PH has more accountants and lawyers than any other profession on tha payroll (since everybody else is a 1099 sub).
However, if Pulte starts offering SIP houses, then TB and the like have to stop and examine whether they need to as well, if only to be "competitive" in the national markets.
Just ask the people at Centex about "having" to follow market trends, not matter where they go. Or you could ask Ken Neatherlin about Jim Walter or the like--often such questions get side tracked into the mechanics and calculus of running businesses of a certain size for profit (or it sure does with Kenneth <sigh>).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I spoke with Pulte and the official word is that they are in limited production of SIP homes in Virginia and the surrounding area. However they are "not sure about the long term potential".
Didn't sound like they thought it was the next silver bullet.jross -- FH Editorial
http://www.sipbuilding.wordpress.com
Didn't sound like they thought it was the next silver bullet.
Understanding that it will sound over-cynical to so state, that sure does sound like "toe in the water" to see if any of the "same level" competition will get into the pool, too.
Perhaps because "we" here are so much more focused on fine building; the construction of homes, rather than houses, that a jaded tone emerges. PH and the like are businesses, and the "things" such businesses "do" are driven by the scale of their economics.
I find it increasingly difficult, though, to seperate some of the logcical-by-business-size decisons from the effect on the end customer. The family going into that sales office in the new subdivision expects that a new house would also be modern, with limited failures/foibles due to age. Instead they get a "market commodity."
Oops, I fear I've slid off on a rant about what a home-buying customer gets when they buy from a house-builder. And to no great end, either.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
VaTom
MYTH!
most SIPmakers use borate treated panels.. No worse a problem than carpenter ants would be in a stick built house..
Ants can't eat foam there is no nutitional value to an ant.. Untreated wood is what an ant goes for so if he's eating the OSB he'd eat your 2x4's
If that's the case, why treat ICFs with borate?
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
MYTH!
What myth? The contractor of the house builds half a dozen houses a year, upper end. They don't have carpenter ant problems. One house they build with SIPS, it gets ants. So bad the owner could hear them in the second floor walls.
Complain all you want about incompetent builders, but this GC didn't want to touch SIPS again. Nor did the HO. That is what this thread's about. Not whether you can build SIPS inexpensively or without problems. A little bad PR goes a long way.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I'm not replying to your particular situation (since I know nothing about it) but wouldn't the vermin problem be much less of an issue if the outside surface were something tougher than the OSB that seems to be the only option mentioned in this thread?I found this (http://www.ics-sips.com/ICSHOMEv3/surfaces.html) a while back (probably here) for getting panels with the outside surface fiber-cement, which is pretty uninteresting to ants, termites, and rodents.I would thing this would be another plus for builders (which I am not) because that is one more job that gets done when you set the panels rather than having more time and labor spent to do the siding and less weather worries.Am I missing something?Anybody try these?
JimmyTheGreek,
I'm sorry that you have an incorrect impression. The panels are as said, foam covered with OSB. However your home has either OSB, Plywood or fiberboard on the outside right now.
So The OSB isn't the issue. You house covers up that plywood, osb, fiberboard with siding.. it could be as you suggested, fiber cement , vynal siding, bricks, etc..
ON a house made with SIP's they too cover the outside with siding of some sort fibercement, bricks, whatever,...
IN that respect SIP's are no differant than regular construction and you can't tell from the inside or outside if it has SIP's only the homeowner knows when every month his heating bill is lower than neigbors with regular stick built houses.
I'm not replying to your particular situation (since I know nothing about it)
Not my situation. I'm strictly a bystander, reporting what I'm told.
wouldn't the vermin problem be much less of an issue if the outside surface were something tougher than the OSB that seems to be the only option mentioned in this thread?
Good question. This particular house has Drivit on the exterior. That was a separate problem. Apparently installed correctly for the time, the windows later developed leaks, resulting in delamination of the Drivit. Unlikely that's how the carpenter ants entered, as the windows are not close to the ground. Don't know if the exterminator found the entry point.
Which really isn't the point anyway. These SIPS proved to be a hospitable home for the ants.
There's a lot I don't know about this house, now inhabited happily by a new family. My sole, simple, point here is that an expienced builder and a HO had a poor experience with SIPS. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
My sole, simple, point here is that an expienced builder and a HO had a poor experience with SIPS.
Wait! Hold on there Tom. The problem wasn't with sips. It was with dryvit.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
My sole, simple, point here is that an expienced builder and a HO had a poor experience with SIPS.
Wait! Hold on there Tom. The problem wasn't with sips. It was with dryvit.
Frenchy says it was the Drivit. You say it was the Drivit. Neither of you has seen the house or know the history beyond what I've written.
Neither the HO, the GC, nor the guy doing the Drivit repair think so. Drivit subcontractor wasn't even asked, for obvious reasons. Furthermore, the Drivit sub's other houses, with similar delamination, didn't have carpenter ant problems. They were all non-SIPs, normal for our area. This was fully looked into when the HO got that astronomic Drivit replacement estimate. Get the lawyers involved and everything gets examined carefully. It was a mess.
That doesn't mean there isn't a connection between a leaky skin and ants in this one house. But it does mean neither you nor frenchy know either. As I said before, believe what you want. But it's faith we're talking about here, not fact.
The Drivit sub is a major subcontractor here, doing a very good business. Far as I can tell, he followed best practices at the time. Unfortunately, just like the non-borate SIPs, the HO got stuck with yet another mfg. putting out a product with insufficient testing. Pretty sure I mentioned that the HO would never have anything further to do with Drivit, in addition to SIPs.
You also apparently missed the first part. Had to do with his paying over $100k cost over-run premium for the house in the first place. The ants weren't a major HO complaint, easily fixed with a few exterminator dollars. He found it amusing, didn't notice any cold spots in the walls. Clearly the cost over-run had to do with GC and sub inexperience, but it was largely due to SIPs. Would not have happened to that extent with stick-built.
Wrong builder? Wrong contract? Clearly, for SIPs.
But apropos to this thread asking "Why aren't more builders using SIP's?". Reasonably or not, blame was applied. It stuck. You and frenchy want to defend SIPs. That misses the point.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
You and frenchy want to defend SIPs
Im not defending sips, nor attacking. I'm just observing that you cited a case where dryvit was applied, and wet conditions occurred and ants inhabited the area. Ants would have inhabited that wall no matter how it was framed, unless it was concrete.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Blue, you're engaging in selective reading. Leads me to conclude you are defending SIPs.
You apparently missed this part:
Furthermore, the Drivit sub's other houses, with similar delamination, didn't have carpenter ant problems. They were all non-SIPs, normal for our area. This was fully looked into when the HO got that astronomic Drivit replacement estimate.
Concrete houses are extremely uncommon here, as presumably in your neighborhood. I also previously mentioned that carpenter ants aren't how exterminators earn their livlihood here. Quite unusual. Leaky skins aren't.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 1/7/2007 10:31 am ET by VaTom
VaTom,
I hear that myth all of the time.. I know that my neighborhood has an issue with carpenter ants, They are all over the place. Ask any neighbors and they either have them or treat for them. I had a small nest in my old house so I know they can live here.. Yet there hasn't been a single ant in my house.. Not even the little sugar ants that are attracted by kitchen sugars.. (My wife works and she simply doesn't have the energy to keep a neat and clean kitchen..) Sugar ants used to crawl all over the old kitchen.
Since I built with SIP's there hasn't been a single sign of them, ask any of the locals to stop in and confirm any time they are in the neighborhood..If they stop by in the summer I can take you outside and show you carpenter ant nests outside, but I'll give a nice crisp new $100.00 bill to anyone who finds a nest in my walls..
Once you think about it for a minute you'll see how tough it is to accept that it's a major problem.. Let's assume for a minute that the contractor you speak about didn't get borate in his panels.. Or even worse the homeowners said to buy panels without borate in them.. So we have panels that are unprotected..
Show me the motivation for an ant to tunnel thru a long distance of poisenous foam. Remember foam is a by-product of oil. Chew a stomach full of foam and tell me how you intend to get it out will you? OK I'm not an ant entomologist. I don't know if ants have azzholes and if they do will foam just pass thru their system? I don't think so.. But assume that they do and they can..
So far you must admit that I'm really bending over backwards to give you the benefit of doubt aren't I?
What drives the ant to tunnel thru a extremely long distance of nasty stuff to what? Eat a 1/2 inch of OSB?
Remember, a panel is made of foam and two sheets of OSB. Why would an ant eat thru foam to eat a sheet of OSB? Wouldn't a nice 2x4 or 2x6 be more attractive?
I can see how carpenter ants could get into a house built with SIP's if the contractor introduced them in wood that was maybe infested, heck even in a SIP house there are interior walls made from 2x4's But carpenter ants want to eat as they tunnel.. it's how they get the energy to do the tunneling.. Feed an ant a diet of foam and watch it die...
Frenchy,
I won't argue with your positive SIPs experience, but you are off on the biology. Carpenter ants don't eat wood for nutrition, they do it to build their nests. Their source of nutrition is more tradtional - other insects, and honeydew from aphids. In fact, they are pretty cool, even in the ant world, because they tend aphids the way we do cows.
I'm not going to chew foam to see how easy it is to eat any more than I'm going to gnaw on the trim around the door to see how easy wood is to eat. But the foam isn't poisonous without the borate, so there's really nothing to stop them tunnelling through it. And if it does have the borate, then I think quality control comes into play to make sure that it is evenly distributed throughout the foam.
aimless,
Help me out here since you seem to know ant entimology, Do ants actually eat the foam? if so how do they pass it out.. If they don't, do they chew it into such small pieces that it doesn't take up as much space? In other words compress it? I do know that at it's most basic point wood has celluliose which is a kind of simple sugar (I know I'm expalining it wrong) <G>
Anyway I can understand an ant going after damp softened wood and once there he might tunnel a bit, but chewing thru say two stories of foam to get where?
As I understand ant society there are explorer ants who seek out food sources. They then come back and tell other ants who might migrate when the nest divides or tell other ants where the food source is..
But tunneling a long distance on the chance that there might be food available?
Sorta like Columbus setting sail for the new world based on some idea he had.. 1492 to what the 1600's and one explorer? Hardly an infestation!
Frenchy,
If you've ever looked at an ant colony in the ground you see a mound of dirt around the entrance where they deposit what they dig out. I believe it is the same with carpenter ants - they just dig it and move it out of the way. They aren't really eating it - getting the cellulose in wood requires a special set of enzymes.
The nest location is not chosen by the scouts or workers, it is chosen by the queen. She is not selecting the location because it is a food source, she is selecting it because that is where she wants to live and lay eggs. The scouts don't need to tunnel to find food - they can exit the nest to find it through the door like all civilized ants.
aimless,
Thanks for the information.. But why would an ant select a SIP home over say a fiberglas insulation home? Wouldn't it be easier for an ant to tunnel thru other insulation than foam? I can't see why foam would attract an ant over say celluliose or fiberglas..
Frenchy,
I'm not an expert either, but maybe I can help clarify some things.
First, carpenter ants use SIPs and stud walls alike for homes but not for lunch. So they don't mind the EPS any more than they do pine or fir or hemlock. What they eat for lunch are the scraps of food we leave under the table. You're right in that borate use is an effective way discourage them.
Second, (and this is not directed at you but just a point in general that's good to understand) carpenter ants, termites, and other pest problems are usually an indicator of another and usually larger problem. Typically water is the culprit. Once we solve issues with water and how it moves in and out of the structure most of the other problems will go away. That holds true for any house no matter what the building material.jross -- FH Editorial
http://www.sipbuilding.wordpress.com
jross,
We are in agreement about water issue causing the attraction much more so than what the insulation material is..
But frankly given three houses to enter why would an ant prefer to tunnel thru foam over say fiberglas or celluliose? What's the attraction?
Frenchy,
Foam core insulation is softer than wood but has a structure that will remain rigid enough for a carpenter ant to make a house in. If that same ant went into fiber glass or cellulose his house would collapse; something we all can agree is not a good scenario.jross -- FH Editorial
http://www.sipbuilding.wordpress.com
jross,
OK if I shove a pencil thru fiberglas insulation and then pull it out it doesn't collapse. If I do it often enough It kinda leaves a hole. But are you saying carpernter ants don't eat homes made with fiberglas insulation? Because you are wrong.. I had carpenter ants (a small nest) in my old house . Fiberglas insulation.. celluliose, foam why would ants prefer foam? And assume they somehow actaully prefer foam why SIP's and not foam sprayed into the walls of stick built houses?
If throw a chunk of foam on the ground and a chunk of pine I can expect the pine to quickly disappear as carpenter ants eat it .. the foam will sit there 'til the cows come home..
Finally I think someone is wrong,, if you have panels made with borate ants eat it and die.. Borate doesn't make loud music and keep ants up all night or invite bees in as their neighbors and keep the the nieghborhood loud with their comings and goings like Hells angels. ants termits and others eat borite and die.. to eat borite they must eat foam..
frenchy,A couple things.
First, carpenter ants don't eat wood for food. They live in wood or whatever structure fulfills their architectural needs. Other pests, such as termites, eat wood.
Second, borates are non-toxic to insects. Borates act as an irritant to discourage insects from staying in contact with a borate treated material.
Borates, while an irritant to insects, are non-toxic to humans and are widely used in products like talcum powder and baby diapers.
Also, in case the point was missed, borates are effective in discouraging pests from camping out in SIPs but, and I'm sure you will agree with this, pests are a house problem not a SIP-specific problem and the best way to control pests is to control the water moving in and out of the structure.
jross -- FH Editorialhttp://www.sipbuilding.wordpress.com
Edited 1/5/2007 8:55 am ET by jross
Edited 1/5/2007 8:57 am ET by jross
jross,
Excellant discussion. The light bulb came on and I now have a clearer understanding of what transpires. Well written!
So far you must admit that I'm really bending over backwards to give you the benefit of doubt aren't I?
Very clearly not. You are not bending whatsoever. What I related was one builder and one HO's experience with SIPs. 100% of their experience was negative. Had to do with carpenter ants. They thrived is SIPs. Fact.
It's not a myth.
Do you get the message yet?
Representative of SIPs is not something I ever said. Common problem? I don't know. You certainly believe otherwise. I have no reason to doubt you, but you lack credibilty with the above statement.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Take a breath Frenchy.
It is a fairly well know fact that carpenter ants like to bore into foam. It makes a pretty good home for them. It is pretty simple to eliminate them by using borate treated foam. My (SIP) house was initially overun with black ants, they were everywhere. This was just after framing and things were pretty moist, which we all know ants love. They were all dead within days from the borates and there hasn't been a trace of them since. Insect tratement is an important part of any home. Let's not make more out of this than there really is.
TomW
I simply cannot see what would drive an ant to eat an oil by product. You are absolutely correct when you say that borate is the solution. But if I'm old Mr. Ant why would I take a bite out of plastic and keep comng back for more?
Wood I can easily understand but foam?
I don't claim to understand the inner working of the ant mind, but it is fairly well known that they will bore into and nest in foam. If they didn't what would be the purpose of borate treatment?
TomW
I certainly agree with you. I'm just trying to figure out why it happens.. I mean if I toss piece of foam on the ground next to a piece of pine by fall the pine will be riddled with carpenter ants and the foam will still just sit there..
VaTom
Let's give you full benefit of doubt that one contractor had a problem with carpenter ants.. Let's also ignore my experiance because I had Borate in my panels and this contractor may have found panels without it..
Many stick built homes have foam sprayed in the walls, they don't have a carpenter ant problem. Homes with other sorts of insulation have carpenter ant problems, fiberglas and celluliose insulated homes suffer if not taken care of..
You say you have problems with a lot of carpenter ants. try this test please. Toss a chunk of foam on the ground right next to a piece of Pine.. do it close to a location where carpenter ants are in abundance.
Next fall pick them both up and look at them.. if ants have tunneled into the foam and not into the pine send it to me with the ants trapped inside and I'll tell everybody that will listen that you are correct.
I'm not trying to sell you anything.. I don't sell SIP's or work for someone who does.. I don't own stock in a SIP's dealership or shares of a foam company. All I gain is that others know that there is something beyond stick built houses..
My house is a timberframe but you don't need a timberframe to benefit from the advantages of SIP's
I understand how reluctant some are to embrace new technology. Heck only 1% of homes built in America are built with SIP's that means 99% of all building trades have never done a SIP house..
It's easy to misunderstand something that is rare..
Frenchy, for the last 5 years or however long you have ben here YOU have been blasting cellulose insulation.
As far as I know you base your claim on one house, your own.
I know you are wrong, so do many others posting here, yet you continue to claim cells will cause water damage any time they are used.
Tom says ants ate the house he saw, you weren't there but claim he is wrong.
I know you are wrong about cells, I'll believe Tom on the ants.
Joe H
JoeH
I'm sorry but you have it confused. I had an issue with celluliose insulation but I said that it was the local climate not celluliose.
What happened in my house was frost would form on the inside of my roof. When the frost melted it got the celluliose wet which eliminated any R value and heat poured out making the problem worse.. (the R value of wet fiberglas or celluliose insulation is nil.. )
When I demolished my old house I carefully examined the vapor barrier looking for signs of leakage or someplace where the interior moisture could have caused the problem. None was ever found.. Mike Smith Insisted that the moisture was coming from a leak in my vapor barrier. Roof leaks too were eliminated as a source for the problem. I could crawl thru the attic in pouring rain during the summer and see no sign of leakage.. In fact the heat from summer sun had the celluliose bone dry.
My theory was that moisture in the air late in fall would enter the attic thru the soffit vents.. that dampness reduced the effectiveness of the insulation to the point where on a cold day the heat would pour out of the house causing the inside of the roof to frost up, first warm day with the sun shining on it and the frost would melt and the problem would get bigger..
The reason I selected foam is because it isn't affected by moisture.. Both fiberglas and celluliose are.
If you read my posts to Tom and those of jross, the problem wasn't with SIP's. It's with mistakes made in construction which gets the OSB wet and keeps it wet.. In Tom's case they used Drivit and apparently failed to properly flash/seal it.. That sort of error would cause any house, stick built or not to attract carpenter ants..
If there was a problem with foam attracting ants then why isn't it an issue with sprayed in foam in Stick built houses?
OR test it yourself. toss a pine stick on the ground near a carpenter ants nest and a piece of foam.. examine them later for signs of ants..
Frenchy, I think you are changing your story here, but I am real sure your science is wrong.
You make a good argument for unvented roofs, but what was wrong with your particular house is still unknown.
If your theory was correct, there would be thousands of soggy ceilings collapsing throughout the cold part of the country.
Joe H
If there was a problem with foam attracting ants then why isn't it an issue with sprayed in foam in Stick built houses?
OR test it yourself. toss a pine stick on the ground near a carpenter ants nest and a piece of foam.. examine them later for signs of ants..
Frenchy,
I think SIPs should be great but I've never used them so I won't weigh in on that. But I think your test has nothing to do with the real world situation. My understanding is that carpenter ants NEST in the foam. And one of the reasons they nest in it is because they stay WARM in the winter and protected year-round -- the foam is in the walls and it's not lying on the ground like in your "test."
In a foamed stick wall the carpenter ants might stay inside a stud bay. If you need to clear them out, you tear of the sheathing or sheetrock and do your thing. As I read through all this, it sounds like one of the problems with ants and SIPs is that they can tunnel tens of feet to make a nest and won't be confined to a couple of stud bays. So it becomes a bear to find them and possibly bear to repair the SIPs once you do find them. If it's a problem then one would be crazy to not use borate treated foam in their SIPs and not take precautions to prevent ant entry, just like one would be a fool not to use termite shields under the sills in termite country.
Va Tom's objective ant/SIP story is an objective data point to be considered and learn from, not just some myth.
Billy
Billy,
I think jross explained it best.. Ants are attracted to damp wood. If there is no damp wood (which there shouldn't be in a properly built house) there is no attraction to carpenter ants.
If Only SIP's had a problem with ants, then you'd be right to condemn SIP's but stick built houses have ant problems. Considering that 99% of all houses are stick built the remaining 1% of houses simply wouldn't support the exterminator industry.. (pretend that most SIP's weren't built with borate in them)
Try my little test yourself. Toss a piece of foam and a piece of pine on the ground near a carpenter ant's nest.. wait say a year or so and pull them both off the ground.. there most likely will be ants in the pine But I seriously doubt that they will nest in the foam even if it does keep them warm and comfortable..
The reason I doubted Tom's story had to do with the information I gathered from all of my reading on the subject.. Tom was good enough to elaborate and in the end we both learned something. Frankly I should have been more diplomatic instead of defensive. I intend to be so in the future..
Turns out there was more to the story than what we read at first.. IT sounds like the culprit was Drivit and a contractor not familar with SIP's in the first place.. Sure SIP's took a hit because they were easy to point to.. But SIP's being at fault? That's sorta like saying it's Ford Motor company's fault that you got into an auto accident.. It may have happened in a Ford But the 6 beers you'd just downed and driving 90 in a 30 MPH zone could have been the real reason. <G>
That's sorta like saying it's Ford Motor company's fault that you got into an auto accident.. It may have happened in a Ford But the 6 beers you'd just downed and driving 90 in a 30 MPH zone could have been the real reason. <G>
Exactly -- and that's why I made the analogy to not using termite shields under the sills -- if the sills get termites it may have nothing to do with the sills.
But you should pay attention to the ant nesting factor, which your test doesn't address.
The 6 beers are sounding pretty good about now. ;-)
Billy
Billy,
Here's a few virtual beers, I'm buying...<G>
Anyway why wouldn't my test check the nesting factor? Give them a decent sized piece of Pine and a decent sized piece of foam if they wanted to nest they would have their choice..
We should spray both the wood and the foam with water periodically to simulate a damp condition so it those carpenter ants wanted a nice dry chunk of foam they could have it and if they wanted a damp chunk of wood they could have that..
They may not eat the foam, but it sure makes a nice nesting space for them...at least in some Dryvit work I've seen. I assume the borate keeps them out, whether they are eating the foam or not. FWIW, I'd love to have a well built SIP house....poorly insulated stick building sucks in this energy expensive age.
jrnbj
Apparently the borate irrates them enough that they leave and don't nest there.. I can state that my old house was filled with ants (including one carpenter ant nest) My wife works and keeping the kitchen spotlessly clean isn't a priority with her. The new SIP house I seldom see ants anymore and when I do it's just one..
What apparently nobody else on this board sees is not only the potential for energy efficency but the conservation of resources..
Wood is a wonderful thing, warm and colorful with an infinate variety of patterns and color combinations. It shouldn't be hidden away inside a wall someplace, rather on display showing mother nature in all her glory..
If people could look at the big picture they'd see the potential not only for savings but for profit..
Grow fast growing wood for the use in OSB. Slower growing trees could then be harvested for the beauty of the wood, that wood placed in places where it can be shown in all it's glory.
The slight amount of petroleum used in the formation of foam is a drop in the bucket compared to oil burned heating inefficent houses. New methods of making foam no longer harm the atmosphere the way the older stuff did. and who knows what wonders science and technology will create in the future making panels even more efficent..
SteveFFF
I'm tempted to tell you that you don't understand the first thing aboiut SIP's but Iwon't because you might get insulted..
Let me tell you my experiance building with SIPs.
The materials were cheaper than stick building would have been.
I could order the panels one week and pick them up the next week.
They will put wire chases in anyplace I asked.. no charge!
I didn't have any wire chases intalled because it's so darn easy to put them in yourself. (how hard is it to drill thru foam anyway?)
The house of the future had a mistake, happens all the time building and they were able to correct it.. No big problem! (well not much worse than an 8" error would be in regular stick building)
Plumbing is never an issue!
Now I used a forklift to put the panels on my roof, but anything with a 27/12 pitch roof (yep 27/12) where you are 30plus feet above the ground requires something..
In much of the front of the house where i couldn't get equipment I simply muscled thm into place, even the 30 feet long ones!
Actually I do understand "the first thing" about SIPs but never said I was an expert or had even used them.The limit of my experience was a quote of $35,000 for SIPs versus about $13,000 for materials to stick frame it. Clearly labor costs would be less for SIPs. The two SIP companies gave me lead times of 4 and 6 weeks.I used to have regular conversations with my neighbor who ran the local Khovnanian Homes division about SIPs, ICFs, AAC blocks, etc. Khov and the others in that league build thousands of homes every year and have staffs of folks who have no other job than to figure out the most cost effective way to build a house. Given your statements that SIPs are better, faster and cheaper in every way, why do you think the big boys continue to stick frame houses?Steve.
Given your statements that SIPs are better, faster and cheaper in every way, why do you think the big boys continue to stick frame houses?
imo:
SIPS are better and probably faster, but they are definitely not cheaper.
I know Frenchy will lead you to believe that it is cheaper to build with SIPS, but that just isn't true. it worked for him under special circumstances but i have found that your experience is pretty much the standard.
The limit of my experience was a quote of $35,000 for SIPs versus about $13,000 for materials to stick frame it. Clearly labor costs would be less for SIPs. The two SIP companies gave me lead times of 4 and 6 weeks.
Maybe the labor costs would be cheaper for SIPS, but by how much ? What would the stick framing labor have been ? $3000-5000 ? How much could you save from that using SIPS ?
Hardly enough to justify I would think. In your case the SIPS job would have been double the cost and you would be at the supplier's mercy waiting for the panels.
I think I would stick frame it and spray foam it and go to Hawaii twice with what's leftover.
The reason big builders don't use SIPS is because it currently isn't cost effective and their customers aren't demanding it. If oil jumps to $5 per gallon, then you might see a jump in popularity.
A good parallel are hybrid vehicle sales. Now that gas is down to what everyone considers to be a "reasonable" $2.35 per gallon, hybrid sales are dead flat. Last year they couldn't keep them on the lot.
carpenter in transition
Edited 1/3/2007 6:46 pm ET by timkline
Timkline,
I can say it simpler.. with only 1% of homes built with SIPs that means 99% of the people building don't have a clue about SIP's.
Fear of the unknown drives up costs far beyond reality. If all the plumbers electricians and others had the same experiance with SIPs the cost of SIPs would actaully be lower.. (not by a lot but by a couple of percent)..
SteveFFF
I suspect the reason that SIP's are still a minority is because there is a whole generation of builders out there who are welded to doing things a certain way..
Look at electrical work just as an example.. If you ask 200 electricians for a bid on a SIP built house you will get nearly 200 differant quotes.. An electricain who works with SIP homes and is willing to be competitive will quote the same price as a stick built house.. there relly isn't any differance..
Tell that to someone who never has done a SIP built house and we're talking about fear money now. Thus the quote covers the learning process and fear.. fear of the unknown.. Since only 1% of the houses are SIP built that means 99% of electricains don't know and will bid accordingly.. ..
The same applies to plumbing and all the other trades..
For an example ask a sheetrocker to bid on a SIP home.. Anyplace you put a screw is fine, no searching for studs, you can't miss.. yet often they will quote higher! why?
The job is actually easier but fear again,,
OK lets look at framers.. Most framers have a pretty good idea of the time it will take to frame a 2400 sq ft. house.. add a little bit for complexity and they have their bid.. now build that same home with a SIP and the training process plus fear will take nearly as long as it would to frame otherwise.. hence the quotes will be as high or higher in spite of a much faster process.
The building trades are extremely slow to embrace new technology.. I'm still selling telehandlers to contractors who been doing things by hand for a decade or more and the first comment I hear is why didn't I do this sooner.. I first started selling them 15 years ago and the profit benefits are clear..
Even in today's day you'll hear about some guys who insist that hand nailing is superior to nail guns.. They won't buy a telehandler because they don't want to spend the money (yet they will drive a new pickup where the payments are as high and won't last nearly as long)
ICF is catching on here in Minnesota in spite of a 2% premium. (pure profit) that's because there are those out there aggressively promoting it. While the number of SIP homes is fairly consistant because the companies who build SIP's don't have an aggressive marketing plan..
Finally why aren't more homes built with SIP's? NO demand.. no promotion, and builders and developers want to build what they know there is a demand for.. You need to be pretty tuned in to even know what a SIP is and in many cases the myths and fear of the unknown will keep you from acting..
"cause they can pay relatively unskilled labor to build what the uneducated consumer wants....and because they are by nature conservative...that's why. Cheaper ain't necessarily better, except in Wally-world
-->
Steve,
You jinxed me. Foundation plan didn't get changed to match the main floor on the house we started this week. Foundation= 52'. Main Floor=54'. Garage trusses 2' too long, master bath only 12' wide, no room for double vanity, or roomy throne room. All bad.
Might be time for lifetime beer #7.
I don't know if SIPs would've added that much more complexity to this issue or not.
Incidentally, I did find a local GC comfortable with SIPs. I may get the chance to weigh in on this issue in the future with a real perspective.
Ben-->
Edited 1/6/2007 11:15 pm by CleanCut
Cleancut,
It's not a problem to cut a panel. Zip with a skill saw on both sides and then a sawzall to neatly cut the foam. To recut new spline groves you simply use the foam melter sideways. a few minutes job.
same if a wall is out of plumb or square and it can't be easily fixed.. just cut the panel to fit and recut the spline grooves..
CleanCut,
here in the upper midwest SIPs should be required by law! That or ICF's..
Maybe that should give you some idea of where I stand on the issue.. <G>
THE GAIN IN INSULATIONAL VALUE ALONE IS GOOD REASON TO SELECT THEM!
Speed in assembly is another reason plus flexibility in window placement and other features means that someone isn't selling them well.
As for those who whine about difficulties they simply haven't done enough jobs or have failed to think the issue thru..
First plumbing doesn't belong in an outside wall in the midwest.
Period!
It comes from below and leaves thru the same location..
Wire chases are so easy that the only reason for higher bids is again either an electricain who hasn't done enough to realise the speed and ease, or a marketing ploy.
Yes there are a few differant techniques, but nothing that a little thought and foresight won't solve..
As for costs!
I paid less for SIP's than I would have spent stick building.. that's less for the materials! The time savings were a bonus..
I'm a homeowner, not a builder, but before I'd agree to have them used in my home I'd have to have some nagging questions answered. First, I believe the foam inside these things is flammable. Everybody touts how fire resistant they are "with the correct finish", but what if a fire gets inside the wall? There's no solid wood inside to act as a fireblock, and it seems like the thing would burn quickly with a whoosh. Not only would the fumes from that be toxic, but if a fireman was on the SIP roof that person could be endangered. A normal stick framed wall, even one that has sprayed foam, is going to have some blocking in there to slow down the fire.
Also, most of the work I've seen around here is pretty sloppy. I wonder if the detailing local laborers would do is exact enough to keep moisture out of sips. What happens down the road when aging (of house) and maintenance issues (due to aging of occupants) result in a leak? With stick framing there is a slow process of rot involved and you have warning that things are going wrong. With SIPs I'd be concerned that things would be dangerous (possibly ready to collapse) before we'd see the first sign.
Lastly, I wonder whether the borate treated foam is really enough to stop the pests from tunnelling throughout the house. We have problems with mice around here, and it seems like they'd have an easier time tunnelling through foam than through wood. I'd hate for an undiscovered mouse infestation to damage the structural integrity of my home.
aimless,
may I answer your questions?
First yes foam willburn so will any other sort of insulation including fiberglas!
however Panels will not support combustion!
Fire needs three things to burn.
Heat, fuel and oxygen.
heat,
they built a bonfire in a corner of simulated house. the temp on the inside wall was 1500 degree, on the outside after an hour of burning the temp was only 50 degrees higher than ambiant.. foam is an insulator a good insulator and doesn't conduct heat thr it the way a stick built house will.
Put a stick built house to the same test and the stick buiilt house will quickly burn to the ground. The effective R value of wood is like .2 per inch. another words heat is quickly conducted thru the wood to an oxygen source..
Fuel,
Most foams (used in panel construction) will burn only in the presence of a heat source.. remove the heat source and the flame goes out!
Oxygen ,
If you would like to test the ability of foam to deprive you of oxygen spray foam in your mouth and nose. you will quickly die..
so will any fire started inside the foam! May I stronly suggest that you ignore my offer of spraying foam into your mouth and nose? <G>
I was trying to be humorous.
Second, SIP's are 200% stronger than a stick built house to start with OOPS!
SORRY LET ME RESTATE THAT FOR YOU.. 200% STRONGER THANSTICK BUILT HOUSE!
200% STRONGER with SIP's
Sure poor construction can cause rot just like any home, however you ned to actaully jump on some panels to see just how strong they are..
Would you walk on a stick built wall laid flatthat was only supported at the ends? how about one 30 feet long? Jump up and down on it in th middle?
Well I did all of the time with my SIP's they are amazingly strong!
I can give you a dozen examples of just how strong they are!
Finally about tunneling,
Wood is a food source for some pests. Borate solves the problems. Sure if a mouse wanted to he could chew thru foam easy enough, just as easily as you could. remember foam is a petrolem byproduct. in effect you are eating oil.
Take a big bite of foam and tell me if you'd keep eating it after your belly fiilled up with it?
Mice might still get in a SIP house, but it will be thru a hole or por sealing not because they chewed their way in..
Frenchy, you are spot on in your analysis of SIPs.
We did the entire roof system of our log house with SIPs and are sold on them. I sent quite detailed plans to the manufacturer (we are in Colorado, they were made in Idaho). They cut them to exactly fit the roof, except at the base of the valleys (four of them).
They all had wiring chases, standard, in them, but we didn't use them.
They were 12"thick, 8 feet wide and 25 feet long. Can't remember how many square feet, but the footprint of the house is 3200 feet, with two 18ft gable "dormers", and 6/12 pitch and the dormers with 12/12 pitch. Total cost, with the panels already cut to the valleys, including 2x12s to be glued at the junction of the panels, foam to foam all the joints, 14in Olympia screws, and 6" pine T&G applied to the underside(ceiling), and delivered on site was $44,000.00.
I thought that was a BARGAIN!
The panels were so strong that we scewed a 12x12 plate with a loop to the center of each panel, and the crane just hooked to that and swung them into place. My sons and brother and old highschool buddy and son in law came for a week and that was our labor. None of us had ever worked with SIPs before.
When we were finished we tried to burn the scraps, but the OSB smoldered, and the foam melted. We gave that up quickly.
As far as rodents are concerned, they make passage ways, unlike termites which consume the wood.
In Colorado we have packrats. Had one in the house during construction and my friend came up and plugged him with a 22. We now have one living in the valley logs and atop the central post. He chews up tiny bits of foam, just enough to ease his ingress/egress. Gotta get rid of him, but can't figure out how. We have foamed all the openings we can find but..... Guess we'll have to call an exterminater cause we are unwilling to accept the risk to our dogs of using poisen.
So, with sips it was relatively fast to put them up, they were so strong that my son (290lbs) and I (275) could stand on the 30 foot panel, supported at both ends, and barely flex it.
R value of 40, finish ceiling already applied, and cheap.
What's not to love about SIP's?
Stef
Fatboy2
thank you for that post..
If enough people tried them the cost would plummet.. they aren't expensive to make or ship, labor costs would drop as more knowledge replaced fear, and clever old Americans figured out the best way to do things..
I don't think there is a one size fits all best answer, and SIP's are too expensive to qualify for most projects.
What works best for walls, is not always the best answer for the roof and vice versa. What works for one climate / house is not always the best answer for a different climate / design.
3,200 sq. ft. of R56 polyiso foam would cost about $8,800
Add a couple layers of OSB for $1,200 more.
Or go with R80 of blown in cellulose for about $3k
Total framing labor for a stick built 3,200 sq. ft. house would be well under $10k, so there is no way to make up for the additional costs in ease of construction.
that $44K for R40 SIP's doesn't sound like much of a bargain to me.
I've modeled all sorts of different solutions for structure / insulation. The cost of the SIP's puts them way down on the list for my project. I can build my house to my design, better insulated and better sealed for a lot less money using other approaches.
>> I can build my house to my design, better insulated and better sealed for a lot less money using other approaches.Paul, can you describe these approaches? Sounds like one is blown in cellulose.
It really is something that you should look at on a case by case basis.
For me, it all started with a lot with a 1/12 slope, and a fixed amount of space between some very desirable live oak trees.
In general, in this part of the country, a slab foundation is about $10 a sq. ft. cheaper than a crawl space, but on this particular building site, a crawl space was the only affordable way to build. Most of the time, a foundation with a crawl space is not cost effective, but in this case it is. Unless you are building cookie cutter houses, every design decision needs to be looked at on a case by case basis.
The crawl space will be more than 8 foot high at one end of my house.
With such a large crawl space, it made sense to put the air handler / furnace / duct work down there instead of in the attic. With the air handler and duct work out of the attic, a conditioned attic loses a lot of it's cost advantages. And if you do not need a conditioned attic for storage space or for A/C efficiency, then blown in cellulose starts to look a lot better - all because of the slope of the lot and the trees. Lots of attention needs to be paid to making the ceiling air tight, but that is very doable.
For my particular house, I think that foam is a better answer than cellulose for the walls and I plan on using Ray Moore's PERSIST system there. I created more than one spreadsheet to look at the costs of several methods of building / insulating.
I've looked at all sorts of ways of building a house, including SIPS, ICF's, etc... These can all lead to a very well insulated house, but there is no one best answer for every situation.
If you have a local reasonably priced source for SIP's, a design well suited to SIP's, and experienced contractors to do the work, they might be the best answer for that particular house. But, there is no one right answer for every house.
>3,200 sq. ft. of R56 polyiso foam would cost about $8,800Gee, where can you get polyiso that cheaply? Latest price I see
is about $5 per s.f.
I was quoted $44.10 for 4'x8' sheets 4 inch thick
4" is about R28
It would take 200 4x8 sheets to give R56 for 3,200 sq. ft. or $8,820
One layer of OSB, two layers of 4" thick foam, second layer of OSB - total material cost about $10k.
Edited 1/10/2007 10:15 pm ET by paul42
Wow! Could you share the name of your supplier
with me?Only price I can find online is this:http://store.dunnlum.com/builderwire20/common/store/itemdetails.aspx?categoryid=224&itemid=7999$85 for a 4.3" R-30 sheet, with foil.BTW are you aware that some companies such as Atlas make
polyiso with a layer of OSB attached to the surface? I guess
it's sort of a half-SIP.
I started at the Atlas web site and called one of their local distrubitors for the price.
Paul42,
you simply aren't comparing apples to apples.
For example the energy savings of SIP's is vastly greater than any stick built house can ever be..The best ratings of fiberglas or foam are skewed due to testing conditions versis real world conditions.. "R" ratings are tested under laboratory conditions.. 70 degrees bone dry wind /(breeze) free. In addition when you stick frame at the absolute best you have an 80% factor.. Every 16 inches is a stud, often they are doubled or more. What is the "R" value of a stud? That's right about .2 per inch! so a 2x4 stud has an "R" value of less than 1 another words and inch and a half wide area the length of the stud has virtually no insulational value
Add doubled and more studs to the picture and you start to see the issue.
SIP's on the other hand have no connecting studs to provide the thermal bridge. You can have a whole area 30 feet by 8 feet without any thermal bridge. Whereas a stick built home has 3456 square inches of no insulation at all at absolute minimum.. More if there are doors and windows which require doubled studs.
0 versis 3456
Now lets look at real world energy consumption.. Fiberglas as we all know is a wonderful filter because it allows air to flow freely past it.. (that's what furnace filters are usually made of you know) If not made of fiberglas they are made of paper.. Now the paper slows down the air flow a bit, but still it does allow air to flow..
Why is that important?
Well if the inside of the house is at 70 degrees and the outside is at 20 below the temp gradent is 90 degrees in that wall cavity. Warm air rises cold air settles.. (That or hot air ballons work by magic) inside at 90 degrees warmer than the outside and that warm air is going to rise while the inside air will fall. It will induce scrubbing, the rapid transfer of warm from inside to outside.. Doubt me? turn on a fan on a warm day.
OK let's get further from the laboratory a bit shall we?
Toss a little moisture into either fiberglas or celluliose and measure its "R" rating.. close to zero depending on the amount of moisture.. Not all moisture comes from leaks either.. look up in your attic before you put any insulation in there at all. see the soffit vents? and the ridge vent or other vent at the top?
Now blow some smoke into those vents.. , pretty soon the attic is filled with smoke isn't it?
What if that weren't smoke but moisture from fog or just a damp day? What keeps that moisture out?
The answer is nothing keeps moisture out of a properly vented attic..
Moisture doesn't affect the "R" rating of foam a bit. Toss some under water for a week and when you pull it out cut it in half, no moisture inside is there? Try that with fiberglas or celluliose..
Want proof? come and look at my Bills. Energy costs before construction began 5 years ago were over $500.00 in January and December. That was a perfectly sealed up house with insulation superior to code requirements. the house then was around 3900 sq ft. Now it's 5500 sq ft.
Since my SIP's were installed my energy costs haven't exceeded $150.00 per month in January and December. (BIGGER HOUSE REMEMBER?) Now I could be technical and bore you with degree days and costs per therm. That would make my point even greater! I am still using the same furnace (at least untill I get the infloor radiant heat connected) and this house hasn't had a moments effort spent on making sure all the air leaks are taken care of.. In fact I know of several places where attention needs to be paid because I can see daylight!
At $500.00 a month it's a high priority at $150.00 I'll deal with it when I get a chance!
Finally I looked up what I paid for my panels.. I have great big vaulted ceilings 25 feet over head and I used a lot of panels.. over 7000 sq ft. of panels. (walls and ceilings) It cost me around $21,000 for panels.. I didn't get a particularly great deal. I did save a lot on shipping because I picked them up myself.. but I ordered and picked them up a few at a time rather than the whole load..
I guess to be fair I should figure out what I spent on gas, but I didn't keep track of how many trips I could make on a tank full of gas so I don't have a clue..
Finally you mentioned what you recieved for labor to stick frame a given house, but did you calculate what the studs etc. would cost? Last time I did that it cost more to buy studs etc. and insulation than I paid for the SIP's Remember the SIP's are the studs.
A few freebie benefits.
A SIP is 200% stronger than a stud wall.. YES! 200% and it's dramatically quieter..
Plus putting a wall in place is a few minutes worth of work.. minutes.. Time savings is dramatic! and putting a window in for a fat overweight guy with no prior experiance took me all of 45 minutes from start to finish.. Hmmm it'll look good there!45 minutes later it was installed!
Measure and cut the opening , fabricate and install the buck, tyvec the opening, install the window, nail and seal with tape took all of 45 minutes.. If I had to frame with studs, cut the plywood tyvec, install, nail and seal with tape on a stud wall I couldn't possibly do it in less than an hour and a half. Maybe you can but this is the first home I've built..
I suggest that if you are getting $44,000 quotes for a house that size it's time you start to look for a differant SIP company.. Once I started really looking I was amazed at how many I found where SIP's are less than 1% of new home construction..
Actually that 2 x 4 has an R-value of almost 5.http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/designing_remodeling/index.cfm/mytopic=10170Since the prices you have quoted are far less than the rest of us seem to be coming up with, how about posting a link to this company so the rest of us can join the SIP crowd.Steve.
SteveFFF
AFM out of Lester Prairie Minnesota.
There are so many things wrong with your last diatribe that it is hard to know where to start.Apples to apples comparisons only work if you stick with one house design, one climate. Different designs call for different insulation strategies. <!----><!----> <!---->
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I originally planned on using foam insulation for my attic, but I found that for my particular house design, cellulose in the attic gives me a better insulated house for less money. I looked at labor costs, ventilation costs, etc… R80 cellulose ended up about $3k less than R28 foam.
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You claim that a SIP built house will always outperform a stick built house – but against what standard. My standard of performance is that, for my lifestyle, the house has to give me the lowest out of pocket monthly expenses for mortgage + energy + maintenance. A house built out of stainless steel with a vacuum between the inside and outside walls will give lower energy costs and lower maintenance costs, but the initial costs are prohibitive. All of those factors have to be taken into account.
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The actual R value of lumber is 1.25 per inch. A 2x4 has an average R value of 4.38. However, when you start modeling the wall as a three dimensional object, the math gets a lot more complicated than the 80% / 20% ratio. The design I am using for my ‘stick built 2x4’ wall has no thermal bridging through the foam insulation except for the framing around the doors and windows. All you have to do is think outside the box.
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Based on real world tests done by several independent agencies, such as the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CMHC), the problems you had in your attic do not occur in a stick built house that is properly sealed at the attic plane. You may think that your house was well sealed, but the preponderance of evidence in the real world says otherwise - get over it.
Using a calibrated laboratory instrument, I measured the temperature difference between the floor and 10 foot ceiling of my 20 year old stick built home. The digital thermometer was accurate to .1 degree and I could not measure a difference between floor and ceiling with all air circulation devices turned off.
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The cost of insulating the attic of my 2,200 sq. ft. house with cellulose to R80 is estimated to cost about $2k. Since the ceiling joists will be buried under two foot of cellulose, the thermal bridging effect is negligible. In my climate, the attic temperatures can easily reach 140 degrees in the summer. So, the cellulose will be quite dry. In my climate, winter heating costs are very minor compared to summer air conditioning costs.
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Paul42,
yes I am guilty of using my location as the standard for everybodies home.. My error..
In my home The monthly heating bills are actual. I expect that once fully completed my heating bills will be further reduced.. and expect that Dec.&Jan. may be under $100 a month.. That's a $400 dollar savigs which added together with other months could add up to nearly $1000 a year..
As I said I'm guilty of using my location as a standard..
My summer A/C bill never adds more than $10.00 to the cost of electricity.. Not $10 month, but $10.00 total The old house worst casewas $30.00
Temp variation is about a 1/2 degree measured with a digital infrared thermometer. That's 1/2 degree over 25 feet!
I can't give you accurate numbers for labor, I didn't charge myself anything.. <G>
Yet material costs were accurite.. Labor? well since I'd never done anything like this before I don't really know how much time I saved.. I can state that doing interior walls took far more time than placing panels in place..
Maybe that's not an apples to apples comparison..
same with heating bills. energy costs today are much higher and I have a bigger house.. If my costs were still $500 a month I'd call that a savings.. but since they are under $150 a month (last month was $137.00) and the house isn't properly sealed yet I 'd call that dramatic especially since I use the same furnace I used before..
One little question, what do you have on top of your insulation to prevent it from absorbing moisture? (or do you live in such a dry climate that moisture isn't an issue?)
Here in the North we put the vapor barrier under the insulation to prevent interior moisture from coming up .. I under stand that you put a vapor barrier on top of insulation there?
In my climate, vapor barriers are not always a good idea.
For standard asphalt shingles and a ventilated attic, there should be a good air barrier at the ceiling level, but no vapor barrier. That allows the attic to dry slowly to the inside all year round and very rapidly to the outside most of the year. If the sun is shining, the attic temperatures are high enough that there is no possibliltiy of wet insulation. There can be some moisture brought in through the attic vents at night, but it dries out much faster in the daytime than it gets wet at night, so there is no accumulation of moisture.
In a wall assembly in this climate, most of the drying potential for a wall is to the inside, so if there is any vapor barrier, it must be outside anything subject to water damage. Brick or foam insulation can be outside the vapor barrier, but all wood or any other type of insulation should be inside the vapor barrier for best longevity.
The cellulose insulation can't gain much moisture unless the temperature of the insulation, or the roof above it, is below the dew point of the air. Any other time, it is going to be just like a book on a shelf at the library with a moisture level that is insigificant and has no effect on its ability to insulate.
In my climate, there are times when some moisture accumulation can occur with a ventilated attic. However, the amount of moisture accumulation is very small compared to the drying potential the rest of the time, and no degradation occurs. You don't have to make sure that it always stays bone dry, you just have to make sure that it dries faster than it gets wet. With no vapor barrier on top of the insulation, it will dry very quickly with any sun on the roof at all.
paul42,
good explaination for your climate..
One of the best I've read,
I guess if I were building in your climate with my experiance I'd build with ICF's
They are super simple to build with (can you say building blocks) and avoid all the issues like tempting termites and hurricanes..
I don't know about concrete prices there so maybe my $90 a yard prices would impact it.. Plus the prices you pay for forms could impact it..
Those who are strong advocates for celluliose never went up into my old attic . It could be bone dry in the summer even after a heavy rainy period with the heat from the sun baking everything, but by late fall after rainy season it was damp and the dampness simply got worse as winter rolled on..
. No wonder the $500 dollar heating bills!
In our climate, cooling costs are much higher than heating costs.
The temperature across the wall tends to be fairly moderate - 70 degrees inside, 30 degrees outside during the winter nights, 110 degrees outside during a hot summer day. Winter temperatures in the teens does not happen very often.
So, winter or summer, the temperature across whatever wall insulation will typically be less than 40 degrees. That means that spending a lot of money on wall insulation is not justifiable. After you meet the minimum standard required by code, the cost of added insulation far exceeds any possible savings.
ICF's do a good job of making a wall air tight, but there are lots cheaper ways of achieving that even with a stick built frame wall. This makes ICF's the answer for a problem that isn't there.
However, in the summer, the shingles or the attic often hit 140 degrees, or even worse with the dark colored shingles that seem to be popular these days. So, in the summer time, the temperature differential across the attic insulation can be 70 degrees or worse. With cellulose insulation, adding another foot of insulation is quite cheap compared to adding insulation to the walls.
Hurricanes are not a factor in my area, but termites, hail storms, and tornadoes can be. There are some new treatments on the market that appear to be a solution to the termite problem and hail resistant shingles are now available. Build smart and keep your insurance paid for the tornadoes.
Edited 1/11/2007 4:32 pm ET by paul42
aimless,
I learned a cool trick from Phil Brooks. He’s a timber framer up in <!----><!----><!---->Vermont<!----><!----> and has been building with timbers and SIPs since the 60’s. When I asked him about pest he said he goes to the local fire department (probably with a plate of cookies in hand) and asks them to use their infrared camera on the house. He can clearly see any tunneling action because of the increased heat loss. He drills a small on the inside of the wall and inserts the nozzle of a spray-foam can. Presto! Any pests that where there now have a pretty good R-value.jross -- FH Editorial
http://www.sipbuilding.wordpress.com
aimless,
I felt compelled to respond to your questions because I often hear them and feel they are valid but easily answered.
1. I worked for a SIP distributor for about 4 years and unfortunetly had to do a few repairs due to fires. The fires were not in anyway due to the use of SIPs. However...because the homes were built with SIPs the fires extinguished themselves and saved the owners tons of damage. When a fire enters the SIP foam cavity the foam does burn for a limited amount of time. Eventually the fire will burn enough oxygen within the cavity and literally stop. I'm not an expert on the subject but I'm assuming the OSB skins are tight enough to restrict the flow of O2 for the fire to burn. When I cut a roof open once to assess the damage you could see where the fire ate up a 1/4 of the panel and then just stopped. So I personally feel it is more resistant to fire.
2. As far as sloppy work in your area, that seams to be easy to avoid. I have found some (not all) carpenters just don't want to change there ways and do not like anything but stud construction. I would avoid anyone who is not excited about trying new things (SIPs). Most manufacturers offer training or even there own crew at a competitive rate. You should at least have a SIP advisor on site to insure proper installation. Any manufacturer who does not have that as a policy is something I would avoid as well. There are plenty of capable people out there...just have to ask the right questions. After all...it's not rocket science.
3. Finally from my experience Borate does make a significant difference. I have never heard of or seen a pest problem turn into a structural problem. I cannot say pest issues are less then a conventional home. But I feel they are not any worse either.
I have not been employed by a SIP company in over 5 years. But I continue to be an advicate for the product. I am a GC that always tries to advise clients to use them. The positives completely out way the negatives. I am currently designing my own home to start this coming summer and I was willing to reduce the size of the home and change the specs in order to afford the increase in SIP costs.
what Brian said:
The other issue is that there is often a premium to be paid, and most homeowners won't pay it.
carpenter in transition
I have zero interest in building a SIP house, but if (and it's a big if) there was a local source for panel big enough to build a roof with I might give it a try.
Big pieces, maybe 15'x10' or similar that could be delivered by truck and placed in a day.Pre cut to match the slope and easy to stick together.
Still, by the time I've paid freight & crane, sticks might still be the best $$ solution.
I've not seen any locally, Cedar City UT.
Joe H
JoeH
30x8 is about as big as they come.. Not sure why you'd want anything that big.. could you explain please?
I think if you understood about the energy savings of SIP's you'd become a convert..
If all homes were built with SIP's the country could save dramatically on it's energy consumption..
Frenchy, If the building is framed & ready for a roof, the bigger pieces the better is the why.
Energy savings can be achieved in many ways, SIPs are only one way.
If I can't buy them locally + having to pay more for them I haven't saved anything except MAYBE some time.
Joe H
JoeH
bigger pieces but you still would need som sort of structure.. You aren't supposed to span more than 10 feet on most panels I read about. You can but then we are getting into other issues.
I'l gladly discuss them if you'd like..
The real advantage of SIP's is that there aren't studs to carry heat outside. The R value of a stud is.2 per inch so a wall that has a R 19 rating is at very best 80%of that rating.. Think of all the studs in a typical wall add the doubled up ones top plates and etc. and you have 20% of the wall virtually insulation free.
A SIP is like a big thermos bottle imagine how poor it would be at keeping heat in if20% or more of it was in direct contact with the outside..
I think you need a better reason than that to go with SIPS
Assume a wall that is 1,000 sq. ft.
Assume the outdoor temperature is minus 20 degrees and you keep your thermostat at 80, so there is a 100 degree temperature differential across your wall.
If the SIP wall is R19 then it is costing you (100 degrees / 19) * 1,000 sq. ft. or 5,263 btu / hour
If the stick wall is only 80% of that, then it is costing you an additional 1,316 btu / hour.
If you are heating with strip electric heat and paying $.15 per kilowatt, then the SIP wall is saving you five cents an hour in electricity.
Since the temperature differential across the wall is almost always going to be less than 100 degrees, your savings will drop accordingly. If you are using some sort of heat pump, then the savings drop even more.
Adding additional insulation to walls beyound about R14 or so has a payback period that is usually measured in decades - and that has to assume that the electric rates are going to double every 10 years or so.
SIPS can give you a very air tight structure and that is where most of their energy savings comes from - not from higher R factors. However, I believe that there are several cheaper ways of getting that same air tight structure without having to spend all the money that SIPS require.
paul42,
Fundamentally why would SIP's need to be more expensive?
Foam and two sheets of OSB. easier to install, faster to install.
OK we can debate that later,
My actual experiance. My home costs me less than 1/2 of what it used to cost to heat. It's a bigger home, more windows and costs since direct comparison aren't adjusted for the higher cost of fuel. What's more I am using my old furnace untill I get the infloor radiant heat installed..
December and January used to cost well over $500.00 a month. Last month it was $137.00 The only change was SIP's The old house was well insulated. I never found a single flaw in it when I tore it apart. good vapor barrier, well sealed, and well above code requirements..
Compared to it now where I haven't really had a chance to seal the air leaks and I know several sources of heat loss..
November which was colder than normal was $84.00
In the past I was happy if it stayed under $300.00
Would you like to debate constrcution costs? I can find my panel costs easily and give you my actual experiance putting them up..
In case you think I'm some sort of expert, I'm not!
This is the only house I've ever built. (and when I took woodshop in school I flunked it)
I did my research and looked at several methods prior to selecting SIP's
I think where your calculations are off is that you used 1000 sqft. and assumed those numbers for the whole house.. My house is about 5500 sq.ft but don't forget to count the ceilings!
The really cool part?
Measure the temp on my floor and the ceiling 25 feet above, there isn't 1/2 degree differance!
now measure the temp on your floor and then your ceiling.. Hmmm, that heat is going someplace!
There is no question that SIPS can provide an energy efficient house. I just believe that there are better and more cost effective ways of achieving the same goal.
My calcualtions were normalized to a 1,000 sq. ft. wall - scale the numbers from there any way that you like - the math still works.
It is NOT the R-Factor alone that is giving you the costs savings that you are seeing, most of it is the better sealed house.
The fact that your floor and ceiling are within 1/2 degree of each other does not mean much. I suspect I could measure the same thing in lots of barns. Just about any house with enough air circulation to prevent stratification will do the same.
Did you have a blower door test performed on the old house? Without that sort of measurement, there is no way of knowing how well it was sealed.
Even with the best attention to detail, a tyvec vapor barrier leaks air like a sieve. Houses built by Dupont and with great attention to detail to show off their Tyvec house wrap only get down to about 1.5ACH(50). A well sealed house can get down to about .25ACH(50).
Foam and two sheets of OSB seems like a very simple answer. Add the non-standard OSB sheet and foam sizes, specific transportation requirements, crane rental, keeping unused bulky panels out of the weather, special sealing requirements, sheet rock on the inside, vapor barrier, exterior cladding, etc... and the simple answer is no longer quite so simple. After awhile, you realize that there are no simple answers.
paul42,
I never had a blower door done because why test something that you intend to tear down?.. I will say that with $500.00 monthly heating bills I really was religous about sealing up the old house. I haven't had time to do the same to this new SIP paneled house and I can clearly see air gaps in some places.
It's pretty hard but this is as close a back to back as you are likely to see.
Many of the old windows are reused, some of the doors much of the orginal foundation, are all the same..
As for temp differances the old house had as much as a 9 degree differance from floor to ceiling with 8 foot ceilings.. Since warm air rises and draws cold air in to replace it, that makes a real differance in comfort let alone energy consumption..
IF warm air leaked out of this house as badly as it did from the old house there would be an even greater temp differance in 25 feet than in 8 feet don't you agree?
Let me restate something I may not have been absolutely clear about before, The old house had a complete vapor barrier and more insulation than code calls for!
Many of the panels I bought were 4x8 sized. (you can't do long 30 foot panels around bows or round towers <G>) Transportation? Read the source of origin on a stack of lumber someday. Alaska, Western canada, southern states like Georgia, Washington etc.. and they get hauled to wherever you are building.. sounds like transportation to me.. Frankly I hauled my panels home myself.. Either in my pickup or the company flatbed.. they'd set them in place, I'd put a few straps on and down the road I'd go. How difficult is that?
The special sealing requirements sound complicated as heck.. How come it was so simple? OK I confess getting that sealant out of those tubes in 20 below weather with one of those old chaulking guns was hard on my grip, but once I learned they should be kept warm untill just before use my life got a whole lot simpler. (can you say DUH?) Alright so I didn't have any experiance and learned as I went.. <G>
Sheetrock? anyplace you put a screw you hit a "stud". with absolutely no experiance it took me maybe three minutes to put the sheetrock on. No holding it in place with one hand and screwing with the other. Lay the sheetrock flat on the panel, screw it down after you put the vapor barrier on and then turn over and put the strap on. I left the vapor barrier long enough so as I set the new panel down it was easy to seal the overlap with tape..
I didn't use a crane.. (Please ask)
Outside treatments? Siding etc? No problem, simple stuff.As for keeping the panels dry? Well I didn't do that. All of my panels got rained on.. one panel wasn't covered for three years, yep three years! rain snow whatever! No failure, no mushyness, no problem! (roof panel)
The real fun was that you could put up all the walls and then decide where to put windows.. Installing windows took an average of 45 minutes for a fat old out of shape 55 year old guy to do by myself.. from Blank wall, deciding where it should be to checking that it opened properly, cleaning it, and putting the grills and screens on.. I'm sure a real pro could do it in much less time..
I'm sorry if I sound like a know it all or my answers seem testy or whatever. But it was simple and cheap to do.. I accept that a professional would have to deal with somethings thru others like transportation, but that really shouldn't be an issue should it? I mean he arranges for transportaion for lumber and truss delivery already. Many other things are simply differances not obsticals unless someone wants them to be..
I keep saying it's like flying.. If you have never flown a plane it seems nearly impossible but once you learn it's like driving only safer and faster..
Paul42 I really would like you to understand how positive my experiance was.. Maybe not having built things one certain way for a decade or more gives me a flexibility in outlook a pro might not have but that doesn't mean the system is wrong. Just that guys like yourself need to take it on, learn the shortcuts and tricks that all good pros know and build better stronger and cheaper houses..
Frenchy, gotta ask you what the hell this is all about--
Lay the sheetrock flat on the panel, screw it down after you put the vapor barrier on
Why would this system require a vapor barrier?
Joe H
JoeH
The very best installation still counts on the seal between panels.. While they have a special sealant/adhesive, it is still possible to leave a slight crack between panels.. I'll tell you someday all the care I used to ensure that my panels were squeezed together as tight as possible ..................
Yet it's better to be safe than sorry.. (which is what happened in that famous Alaska case)
The solution is a suplimental vapor barrier.
Walls don't need such treatment especially if the panels are stacked horizontally rather than vertically as shown in the install manual. If roof Panels went on in the summer and were again horizontal rather than vertical I wouldn't use the vapor barrier.
Why do horizontal panels not need the vapor barrier?
The force of gravity have something to do with the answer?
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
I don't think installing the panels horizontally is a good idea. It ill create hinge joints in the wall. Many panel mfg's also designate the major strength axis of the panels and the orientation of that is inportant. I know the R-control panels were that way and they had to be installed vertically. a vapor barrier should not be needed in either instance but r-control does specify seam tape for any seams that are not using an osb spline, especially roof panels with lumber splines.
TomWGood stuff. Also seam tap goes on the warm side. Inside in the North and outside in the South. Also, keep the ice and water shield off the roof. The best way to keep the roof dry is to create and air space between the OSB and the underside of the roof material. Many SIP manufacturers recommend a cold roof but that's a really expensive prospect. I think the same effect can be handle in a more cost effective way.jross -- FH Editorial
http://www.sipbuilding.wordpress.com
With vertical SIPs you can go back to baloon framing,
and with baloon framing you can use jumbo panels and
eliminate the expense of installing headers.
TomW
Hinge points weren't an issue with a timberframe. In addition if you do the math and assume that we are speaking about more than a single story the panel may center on the second floor which eliminates any hinge point.. If not there are many ways to address the hinge point issue..Windows, Interesecting walls, timbers, closets, tall cabinets, etc..
R control specified a vapor barrier in the roof. Sorry the install book is put away but If you check, you'll find it.. The R control rep came to my site and complimented me on my job..I complained to him about the time it was taking to squeeze the panels together and he told me to speak with,.*******? who did it professionally, that's where I learned about horizontal instead of vertical..
*Sorry the name escapes me.
Blue-eyed-devil
Exactly! The weight of the panel presses down on the joint which helps make the connection perfect.. I could slide splines in, squeeze the sealant on the joint without a great big gob of it wanting to fall off and then set the panel in place. Nail off the bottom of the splines to hold everything in place and stack the next panel on top repeat untill the wall is finished..
The next day after everything settled I'd nail the top of the splines..
When I was doing them vertically I would use as many bar clamps as I had and squeeze them together untill the screws would start to pull out and still the joints weren't perfect..
I eliminated screwing in the cleats for the bar clamps, the bar clamps and waiting while the pressure slowly forced things together.. then taking verything apart! There simply is no way to squeeze out an even perfect bead on a panel sideways. It changed panel install time by a factor of more than 10!
I didn't use a crane.. (Please ask)
Outside treatments? Siding etc? No problem, simple stuff.As for keeping the panels dry? Well I didn't do that. All of my panels got rained on.. one panel wasn't covered for three years, yep three years! rain snow whatever! No failure, no mushyness, no problem! (roof panel)
I'm asking. How'd you do it?
I like the three year story. I've seen osb stay out longer and survive. The key for survival with osb is drying time. You can get it wet, as much as you want, as long as it drys out, just as often.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Blue-eyed-devil,
Come-on Blue You know, My telehandler! For the far side of the great room I used a big 1056 with a 12 foot jib on it (and needed every inch!) 56 feet plus 12 for a total of 68 feet of reach ! Since The Ingersol Rand doesn't have the stability problem other forklifts have I was able to frame tilt it it to get the last few feet needed to get into the far corner. New ones with their swing carrige would have simply been too cool for school. I'm willing to bet they would have knocked at least an hour off the install time on the far side of the roof!
Just for information it rents for $3000 a month, my costs were lower, objects in the mirror are closer than they appear, close cover before striking...... <G>
Edited 1/5/2007 9:11 pm ET by frenchy
I didn't use a crane.. (Please ask)
Outside treatments? Siding etc? No problem, simple stuff.As for keeping the panels dry? Well I didn't do that. All of my panels got rained on.. one panel wasn't covered for three years, yep three years! rain snow whatever! No failure, no mushyness, no problem! (roof panel)
Too many old pros are curmudgeons and only see problems with all new ideas and products. That fact alone probably eliminates about 90% of the possible builders.
I never saw this stuff anywhere until the guy next to me put one up. His guys were really poorly skilled carpenters but they were fairly competent about following the details. Basically, they were slow at every phase and it still went up fairly fast. I saw ten (maybe a thousand) ways to be more efficient.
I'd use them. Were talking about using them on the school project.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
CC:
Not to be rude, but I think you got this a little turned around. Builders build what sells - what the buyers want. This is what makes successful builders. Framers build what builders hire them to build. A guess a framer could choose to specialize in SIPS, but he'd still be looking for builders who deliver that... Other than that, framers don't get to choose what they work with. Heck - builders don't even get to choose what they work with - unless they have the clientele to buy it. Maybe hobby builders get to choose...
Next, SteveFFF above said:
>> I think if you get a set of plans and get a price for the SIPs needed you may get an idea of why they aren't more common. I priced them for a 28' x 40' 1 1/2 story shop and got a quote of $35,000 delivered on-site. No labor or crane to set them up, just a pile of SIPs. <<
I'm guessing that that might end up being a 1500 sq ft structure. Somewhere along a starter home+ kind of deal.
I'm guessing that you would have to add 1 K for electrical and other misc changes necessary for the SIP process. Now I'll make a wild guess that the labor to build the house out of sips might be around $3k since I guess it supposed to be much faster. So now we are at very roughly $39,000 for a shell with tar paper on the roof.
I've bought a number of framing packages lately, and can tell you that a framing package for something like that would be roughly around $7k. OK - add another 6K to make up for the lack of insulation - this should buy spray in foam - just to kind of make things a little more equal. OK, now $6K for stick frame labor. So, now for a conventionally framed and insulated house, tar paper on the roof we are at $19k.
So we are talking very roughly a $20k cost uplift for sips. So we might be looking at a 15% uplift for sips. So, how much is 15%? It's huge!!! That is the minimum net profit the company I work for seeks to clear on each house we build... That would likely buy another 200 sq ft of living space in that price range. Is someone gonna give up 200 sq ft for lower energy bills? Not in the area of the country where I live - maybe more often in Canada, but it's still not common...
So, you see - it all comes down to $$$s and what people are willing to buy. Like my bossman said we (builders) do not dictate the market, buyers dictate the market.
I'm not saying SIPs isn't a good technology, I'm just saying it's time isn't here yet...
Matt,
You may be correct if nobody has built a SIP structure. with experiance there isn't any additional cost to do wiring, plumbing or anything else.. the price you were quoted for panels isn't what I paid, not by a long shot..
heck think about it.. it's two sheets of OSB and some foam!
sure there is a slight assembly charge but nowhere near what you were quoted..
Hey ben. Welcome to the fray.
I'll refrain from entering the hot debate on the pros and cons of sips. You've managed to gather quite a lot of excellent and informative opinions and responses covering the spectrum from aimless voicing some very valid concerns all the way to Frenchy jumping up and down waving his pom poms around singing the praises of the all-wonderful sip. And everything in between. All of it very good stuff.
I'm curious, Where in Iowa are you? I'm from Iowa myself. I framed houses for many years up there and might be able to offer you some bits of advice, or sage words of wisdom, or if nothing else, just some lame stories that ought to be good for a laugh.
feel free to e-mail me if you'd rather keep your exact location under wraps.
By the way, how's the weather these days? The last houise I framed in Iowa, we started the truss installation on the very day that we began a 2 week spurt of freezing rain almost every day! Every morning we came to work and spent hours scraping 1/4 inch of ice off the top plates. It took us almost as long to get that dang roof under tar paper as it normally takes to frame a ranch house! that incident wound up as the straw that broke the camel's back which started Me on my way to leaving all that behind and relocating to Florida.
Hey Mark,don't know about CleanCut but i'm in the Des Moines metro area. We're framing an addition right now and the weather is great. High 40's today, suppose to hit 50 tomorrow. had an inch of snow on New Years Eve. Only snow we've had so far. We have had some rain, but the temps have been in the high 30's & 40's so no freezing rain. it's a beautiful winter so far. <g>CleanCut, what corner of the State are you from?
Edited 1/3/2007 8:26 pm by BarryE
Barry,
Southeast corner. Iowa City. We didn't even get the snow you had in D. Moines. Global warming appears to have a few benefits during the winter months. Think we'll pay a price next July/August?
Any SIP builders in your area? I know that Iowa Coolers in Arcadia makes the panels. They're polyurethane though, and not polystyrene.
I need to make a visit.
Ben
hi Ben,We'll probably pay for this weather somewhere down the line. <g>Haven't seen many SIP's around here yet. I've looked into it a time or to, but sense I do remodels I haven't found a job where it would be cost effective yet.green building is catching on here, so I expect SIP's we be looked at more closely.
welcome to the board
Barry E-Remodeler
Edited 1/4/2007 6:08 pm by BarryE
Ben
Where you working at in Iowa City, or should I say who are you working for?
I work for a company in North Liberty. We are just finishing up a large house west of North Liberty in the Fjords area, headed over to a place off of Dubuque St........... on the north side of I-80.
Doug
Doug,
I just finished one in Galway Hills by West High. Tomorrow I join back up with the rest of North Star builders in Cedar Springs development off MaHaffey bridge road in North Liberty. I can probably see whatever you're building in the Fjords from there. Is it as big as the castle up there? North Star does Jeff Miller's framing. Technically I'm an independant framing sub, but all my work is for North Star. I've got no employees, my own insurance, tools, and incorporated business. Jeff's got 5 foundations in the ground in Cedar Springs and I saw one going in at Cardinal Ridge today. Looks like I'll be busy this spring Good to see someone from this part of Iowa on the Fine Homebuilding website.
We'll be at Iguana's in North Liberty Friday for lunch around 11:45. If you see me make no mention of this SIP thing, I'd get too much ridicule.
Ben
Ben
We'll be at Iguana's in North Liberty Friday for lunch around 11:45. If you see me make no mention of this SIP thing, I'd get too much ridicule.
I dont work Fridays! We work 4 10's.
But I know Igauanas and having just moved back home from a three and one half year stay in Texas that aint Mexican food! I know that they have Mexicans working there but I'm convinced its a white guy back there doing the cooking!
Is it as big as the castle up there?
Funny you should ask. Remember Mark, the guy that responded to one of your post a while back? He was working for Franz when they built that place. I was working for Johannas Arch. Woodworking, and we provided the milwork and a lot of the finish work in that "castle".
I moved away to Texas for 3 1/2 years because my wife took a job down there. She was offered a job back here last Sept and I called Steve(Johannas) and he gave me a job, working on the house just right below that "castle".
Look for the house just below the castle to the north, thats the house we just finished up on.
I'm going to be posting some pics of the stuff we did inside, pretty cool place.
I lived in CR before we moved to TX and so the places that you mention in IC are not all that familure to me, I know where West High is but some of the other places dont ring a bell.
Oh, BTW, if I'm around North Liberty tomorrow I'm walking in Iguanas and yelling out, "WHO'S THE DAMN SIP BUILDER IN HERE!!!
Doug
Doug,
<Oh, BTW, if I'm around North Liberty tomorrow I'm walking in Iguanas and yelling out, "WHO'S THE DAMN SIP BUILDER IN HERE!!!>HA! Did I say Iguana's? I meant Rookies, eh. BTW. Iguana's is Mexican like I am Amish. Just a distant relative but still cheap.Ben
Sheesh! I spend one day away from the internet and I miss out on an entire conversation!
Yes I did quite a bit of work on "the castle". Both framing and trim work. By the way Doug, Nice pics, that certainly brought back a few fond memories. The other house looks cool, I'd like to see more photos. I'm guessing from the looks of it, that it's not another Ahmann designed nightmare.
Ben, If you want to talk to somebody local who has extensive experience with SIPs contact Don Otto. He's a builder out of Solon and as far as I know has done the most with not only sips, but most of the newer technologies. He's a really down to earth friendly person, a font of information and could be an excellent contact for someone looking to do some networking. Just tell him I sent ya... He used to be my neighbor, his garden (and oh my gawd! what a garden!!) was basically in our front yard, Tell him I was the guy with the two big ol' wolfy dogs.
You guys are right, it seems like Iowa has been having a record "nice-streak" weather wise. ever since I left, well except for that whole tornado thing....Nevertheless, I'm a big fan of the whole Jimmy Buffet-esque atmosphere here in Florida. I'm actually taking a day off work today because I needed to have some work done on my truck, among other things, the air conditioning needed to be serviced Hee hee....
You should check out some of Doug's photo postings, he's a remarkable carpenter! and I can honestly say that nobody I ever encountered in Iowa is even in the same league as Johannes for quality and just breathtaking designs. One of the few outfits left in this panelized, pre-cast world who is still doing old-world style woodworking, utilizing actual craftsmen.
Anyway, There are a whole lot of things I really miss about Iowa City. Like all of our friends for instance, Getting to see Dave Zollo or Kevin "BF" Burt performing on the ped mall, Tailgating at Kinnick, (I actually never went to the games, just enjoyed the party...) The annual appreciation lunch at kel Welco where you inevitably met 300 tradesmen that you'd never even seen before, just opening your eyes to how much construction is happening in the area. Being on a first name basis with most of the suppliers and the Building officials in town, all of that and much more...
But still.... having the ocean right here is certainly worth something.
By the way, I've eaten at Rookies many times,(I'd like to shake the hand of whoever hires the waitresses) but where is Iguana's? is it new within the last two years?
" If I were a carpenter"
Mark,
So I read your post and looked up Don Otto in the phone book. We ended up talking for almost half an hour, and you were right, he's about the most down to earth guy I've ever met, (never met?) Sounds like there may be something we could work out. I owe you a big thanks. You've provided me what I've spent 3 weeks Googling for and never found. So listen, I've had about 6 beers in my entire life and no way I could keep up with either your stories or your drinking prowess, but if you come back to Iowa and let me know when you're in town, I'll buy. Really, at least let me get you a tenderloin at Joensy's.
Thanks again,
Ben
BTW Don did remember you.
Now a Jonesy's tenderloin would just about be worth returning for!
No prob, I'll certainly look you up when I'm in town. We can swap war stories. maybe even invite Doug along..." If I were a carpenter"
Doug,
On a total side note. Are you guys looking for any more talent? I've got a friend who moved to Maine six years ago where he's been building radius cabinets for sailboats and other such nonsense. I'm always trying to get him to come back to the area but he says there's not much demand for what he does back here. I've heard Johannes Arch gets into some pretty crazy stuff...
Ben
Ben
I dont know if were looking for anybody or not. I just moved back here 3 months ago and was givin a temp full time job.
Steve fired two people and that may provide a permanant position for me, it may not. I dont worry to much about that stuff. If it happens it happens, me worrying about it wont change it any so........
I worked for a guy down in Texas that was a boat builder out in Maine, he couldnt stand the cold so he came back to TX.
I asked him once about the relationship to boat building and cabinet making and he laughed, said that there was no relationship! He told me that everything he knew about boat building he had to forget when it came time to building cabinets and milwork.
I dont know how much of that is true or just him blowing in the wind. I wonder if your friend would even like the differences.
I've heard Johannes Arch gets into some pretty crazy stuff...
Yea we do, and thats what makes this place so special, there isnt anyplace around that does it so if I cant stay on here I think I'll just switch careers, maybe join the circus!
Doug
Come on Doug... take a good look around this place.
I think you already joined the circus.
:-)" If I were a carpenter"
Well then I'll comand a high wage because I'm experienced!
Doug
Edited 1/6/2007 9:02 am ET by DougU
Ben
Is this the "castle" that you refer to?
I assume so, the other pic is the house we just finished. This view is the back side of the house that faces North Liberty.
Doug
Doug,
That is the castle. Certainly.
Say, what company do you work for? Who built that second house, and what materials make up the arched architectural details out back? That is a really sharp design. Who built those arches?
Ben
I work for Johannas Architectual Milwork and we built that house!
We typically dont build, just provide milwork and such but this was an exception. I'd tell you how it came about that we built it but I dont know who you know in IC and it could cause some hard feelings.
Maybe someday we can have lunch and I'll fill ya in.
We built all that stuff that your looking at. Thats what we do.
You should see the arched cherry timbers that we are doing in our next project, there pretty snazy.
I posted these pic's in a different thread ( 83643.2 ) thats a sample of our work.
I will be posting some more pics of the house in the near future.
Doug
Hey Doug, sorry to hijack your post, but I'd like to hear the story of how Steve became a builder...
Perhaps you could e-mail me. Or now that my Dad's health is declining I'm probably going to be making an occasional trip back to Iowa City, maybe it can wait and we'll discuss it over a beer. By the way, remind me to tell you about the two groupies that grabbed your seat after you left the continental club that night. ;-)" If I were a carpenter"
Mark
Nice to see you here, even though its the cyber world!
Iguanas is a Mexican resturant on 965 right down from Fareway, right on the strip of little shops and resturants going through North Liberty. (BTW, NL is growing, hardly recognized the place) Its supposed to be Mexican and maybe 5 years ago I would agree, not anymore, I've been spoiled!
The house below the castle is the only house that Steve has built in some time. These people came to him a few years ago to discuss their plans, he sent them to Mark Smith but Mark was to busy and sent them to someone else(dont want to mention the name on here) I believe his first name is Don.
Steve has sent a lot of work Dons way and he never sees any in return so the way I heard it Steve told the HO's that he would build it rather then Don get the job.
I think when Steve first came to the IC area he built a few houses but always felt that he shouldnt because he would be competing against the guys that he wanted to do architectual milwork for. This was an exception though. I remember doing some repair work on a few houses that Steve had built 10 years pryor. I know that he built the house for the president of Hills banks, thats in that area right to the north of I-80 and just west of whats 1st ave. in Coralville, dont know if that street changes names after you cross the interstate.
We have another great house going on right now that Mark Smith is building for the Kinze family. Thats the one off of Dubuque on the north side of 80, a really cool place. Right up Johannas's alley. Its quite the place.
Mark Smith and the Kinze family cater in a nice meal every few months, draws a lot of the contractors to the site, some I question there participation on the job, but the foods great!
That house that we just finished out by Myers is for a surgeon for the UofI hospital, one of the nicest guys we have ever done work for BTW.
(Also, did you know that Myers is teaching at Regina! I dont know how all the teachers are living in Iowa but I'm guessing that there arnt any living in a better house!)
I believe that the HO's and Steve designed the whole house. The HO's had an idea of what they wanted and with Steve's help they were able to come up with a plan, and all with out the help of Joe A!
By the way, remind me to tell you about the two groupies that grabbed your seat after you left the continental club that night. ;-)
Yea, dammit, aint that the way it always goes!
The three things I miss most about TX is the women, music and the food, In no particular order either!
If you make it back to Iowa dont be a stranger. Hope your dad is doing better but you can still come home to visit. If it were me I'd wait until late March or April though!
Got a real funny story to tell you about the guy that replaced me at Johannas! I dont want to put it on a bulliten board for all to see though.
Talk to you later
Doug
Doug,
Funny you should mention that house and Steve. About 2 years ago I built a place right next to Steve's house in Lacina meadows. I was setting the stairs for the deck and having a helluva time doing it by myself. A come-along and some ratchet straps and one really scary moment where I didn't think I was going to survive, but it all worked out. Anyway, Steve was outside later and I asked him (not having a clue who he was, I still wouldn't know him if I saw him, this was and is my only contact with him) if he thought he might have to call an ambulance since I'd noticed him stop once and watch me. We got to talking about framing and he mentioned the house you guys just finished. I heard the same story from him then about sending work to the competition but never getting any business back. He even said when it came time to frame it he'd give me a call. Then he saw my multicolored 1982 Volkswagon diesel pickup (it'd blown the motor so instead of swapping motors we swapped in the front half of a rabbit sedan) and I never heard from him again. I wish it'd worked out differently. That house looked like a real challenge. I doubt Steve would remember the experience, but I'd just started on my own and really thought things were coming together.
You're involved at the Kinze house? Is that H&H? I haven't been out that way in a while, but I've heard it is a monster. I've no idea what's on the inside. I was at their wedding and remember watching the 2 hot air balloons fly over the reception dropping 5 gallon buckets of rose petals and thinking there must be some expendable cash in the family.
I didn't hear anybody yelling about SIPs today at Iguanas.
Ben
I didn't hear anybody yelling about SIPs today at Iguanas.
Yea, I stayed home! We dont work on Fridays.
Yes we are working on the Kinze house, its everything you could imagine. When we get over there on a regular bases you can meet me over there for dinner(lunch for you city kids) some day and take the $0.50 tour. You wont be disapointed!
Is that H&H Not sure what that means? is that a company name. Mark Smith is building it.
I'll send you my cell # through the BT e-mail, you can call me sometime when your available.
Doug
Mark,
I'm in Iowa City. (I guess I should put in my profile) And yes, strange as it is, we're working in 40 degrees today. I may have gotten in on that ice storm two years ago. We started to get hungry after 2 days of waiting for the ice to melt and spent 2 more days bang scraping the ice off the trusses before we could sheet 'em. I noticed the crew up the street using a blow torch to melt ice off the roof sheathing before they could paper it. It was hard to figure out who had it worse...
I didn't realize the SIP question would work out like it is. Nine out of ten guys I talk to haven't heard of them. And the one that has framed and powered the building and wants the chance to do it again. And he's more electrician than framer. But the guy I'm currently working with says, "If we built with panels we'd just be assemblers and put ourselves out of work." I don't know where that thinking comes from since he uses trusses without a second thought and wouldn't know how to begin a cut roof. I even noticed the other day after spending an hour building a 42' long 2x6 wall we beat a hole in the OSB, hooked our Skytrack to it, and stood the whole thing up. What's the difference?
Florida beats Iowa? More like a polar opposite. C'mon back up to the Midwest, global warming is making this area right tolerable.
Ben
I've probably posted somewhere else in BT about my experience building with SIPS, but I'll touch on the highlights.
First, I've built a 2800-sf 1-1/2 story timberframe with a 9/12 roof pitch, in Southwestern VT. Used borate-treated SIPS from a respected manufacturer in Rhode Island, walls are 5-1/2" of white EPS foam with OSB both sides (structural panels) and the roof is 7-1/4" of foam with OSB both sides. The extra layer of OSB on the inside made for a rather interesting, and sometimes difficult, installation of window extension jambs and electrical work. There is no plumbing in any outside wall, including vents; the house design made it nearly impossible and we did some creative (but still code-legal) venting, including Studor-type sink vents.
All panels showed up uncut on a flatbed truck and were unloaded in a couple hours, we had a Lull on site and that was used to move panels around and lift them into place. The Lull rental was about $1900 for two weeks. The labor for installation was about $5000. The panels cost me around $22,000, plus about six cases of Spray 'n' Foam cans, the long panel screws were part of the package. All cutting was done onsite, the foundation is ICF and was poured +/- 1/4" everywhere so the panels fit perfectly. The house is as tight as can be reasonably possible with that system. Door and window openings were easily cut, hot knifed the foam out, and 2x door and window bucks foamed and screwed in from both sides of the panels. The really nice thing about the SIPS is, although we didn't make any changes to the pre-planned door and window sizes, it is very easy to make those changes. I am contemplating a couple additional windows and a skylight, and all I have to do is cut the hole and put them in - no headers, no drywall repair, no problems.
Would I use SIPS again, probably very likely. Even on a house that isn't a timberframe. They go up quickly, you don't need to mess with insulation, and the only real "problem" seems to be electrical chases, which can be preformed at the factory. I had mine show up with horizontal chases at 10", 18" and 48" above finish floor height on both floors, and I could have gotten vertical chases at specific locations or spaced every so often if my planning was a bit better. The drywall on the inside of the SIPS was installed as full 4 x 16 sheets tacked to the timberframe before we put the SIPS on over it, then we attached the drywall to the SIPS from the inside with screws 12" o.c. Very easy to finish.
C'mon back up to the Midwest, global warming is making this area right tolerable.
The weathers the same here as it was done in Austin TX!
I love global warming!
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Darn it, just gotta say it: Because they haven't drunk the KoolAid.
<Why aren't more builders using SIP's?>
I think we're all missing the obvious answer.
Builders gulp. They don't take sips.
Probably some sips over in Knots.
Forrest - cutting to the chase
Can you say that again? I didn't get it.jross -- FH Editorial
http://www.sipbuilding.wordpress.com
Well, an item of faith here is that we (builders and BTers) are sturdy coffee drinkers, compared with the "pinkie crooked tea drinkers" in Knots.
So I guess I was extending SIPS to relate to "sips", and pointing out that us manly men and women here gulp our coffee (and beer, of course!), and are philosophically unable to "sip", or SIP.
It's all stereotyping, we know. Lots of us sip fine whisky and $2 Chuck. I personally like using SIPs. Some of my best friends are SIPers.
Forrest - wondering if I'm in trouble
Edited 1/5/2007 9:03 pm by McDesign
Very cute Forrest.
blue"...if you just do what you think is best testing those limits... it's pretty easy to find exactly where the line is...."
From the best of TauntonU.