Gents–
I have a client that wants me to make mahogany windows from scratch. construction tips, caveats, and cookbooks greatly appreciated.
Sandwich construction? The profile will be very very simple. He wants a craftsman style swing on something like knife hinges, simple closure, &c.
help!
Tree
From building boxes and fitting face frames to installing doors and drawers, these techniques could be used for lots of cabinet projects.
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Replies
anyone with sources, ideas, &c.?
I have a ton of info, tree, photos, books, hardware and weatherstripping info, but I'm running late. I'm building a 9 foot casement/fixed/casement unit right now with true divided lights for a customer and have to get the sash glued up. I'll check back later. If you're really in a hurry, so a search (I hate telling people that) this question comes up a few times a year and I have posted titles and ISBN numbers of the books I like the best.
Don't get intimidated though. Building windows is something anyone with even limited woodworking skills can do. The most important part for me is preplanning.
I'll be back. Don't worry, it's a piece of cake.
I'm interested in more of a curiosity way myself. My attempts at a search were less than helpful. Hope you have time for a follow up soon. Thanks!Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I'll be awaiting your post, as well. Looking at having to build some custom windows for a rather demanding customer (SWMBO) & would really like to see what you suggest for research materials. Fortunately, she's fairly tolerant of the sometimes lengthy planning stage involved in any project at home.
Thanks!
Okay, well first off, you have to know what the overall thickness of your glass will be. Will these be insulated units? If so, you need to understand what thickness glass to plan for. You can use 3/32" (often called "single strength") or 1/8" for anything under...I think it's 21 square feet. I think you can go up to 25 square feet with 3/16", and so on, as your openings get larger and larger. Ask at your local glass shop, they will know the exact limits.
So anyway, I always try to give as wide a spacer bar as possible between panes, up to 3/4", to maximize thermal value. I've always been told that after 3/4", weather patterns start to develop in between the panes, defeating the purpose. Let's say you use 1/8" on 1/8" (it's the same price as single strength and quite a bit stiffer) with a 3/8" spacer bar.
You'll have to allow 5/8" for glass, plus at least 1/4" (3/8" would be better) for either wooden stops, or glazing putty, to keep the wind and rain from getting between the edge of the glass and the sash. So let's just say you need as close to 1" deep rabbet in your sash as you can get and still leave enough material inside so the rabbet doesn't break off. Thus you'd like to finish out at at least 1+3/8" thick when you're done sanding your sash, which leaves 3/8" of material inside the glass for a simple champfer, or small ogee (even just a square edge looks great, but I'm a mimimalist when it comes to details, almost Shaker-like).
Now. Say you want a more traditional ogee on the interior of all you stiles, rails, and muttons (is that what those things are called? Or are they "mullions"?) Anyway, if you want a more detailed ogee and use insulated glazing, you almost have to go to 1+3/4" thich sash, which is fine as long as you can buy full 8/4" material to make them out of.
How we doing so far?
Edited 6/25/2003 8:51:19 PM ET by jim blodgett
Mullion -
A verticle framing member dividing two lights of glass.
I think the mutton is the thing that divides its time between eating grass and baaaing a lot - available in horned and unhorned varieties...
http://www.fenestration.net/cat/Catalog2003glossary.pdf
What do you favor for adhesives?
It's a muntin--that's the vertical dividing bar between lites. The mullions are the ones that go side-to-side. I can only remember that because in the cape I lived in as a kid, there was a 'mullion' (open-work shelves instead of a wall) between the hall and the living room, where my mother used to put all her chatchkas on display....
Jim, I've been building windows for a while now, but my preference is for French windows because it avoids having to install crank hardware etc., etc. These can be a pain to weather-proof effectively because the 'shingling' effect of the stop bars is reversed and water running down the face of the window seeps inside the stop bars. I use the old Quebec way to build them (a steel bar dadoed into the sill, but set back from the face of the windows in a rabbet cut into the bottom rails. Do you know of any other method? And do you put weep holes?
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Yeah, my first thought was "muntin" except the first couple of places I looked for definitions only had "mullion" and I couldn't remember how to spell "muntin" to do a google...
OK, another couple of door and window glossaries, the first one actually defines both mullion and muntin - although it doesn't look like it exactly agrees with your definition:
Mullion. A vertical bar or divider in the frame between windows, doors, or other openings.
Muntin. A small member which divides the glass or openings of sash or doors.
http://www.oldhouseweb.com/stories/Detailed/744.shtml
http://www.woodstone.com/newsite/glossary.html
While you (y'all) are describing the window building process would you mind adding in where you are located and whether or not you are governed by code concerning wind and impact testing requirements. Are you required to have a third party (engineer) conduct tests of your product including its attachment to the structure, down to the size, number and placement of nails or screws?
Why do I ask?
Because in my area, Florida, we have a couple of monster code books with lots of references to ASTM's, etc. that we must follow. If a window or door has not been tested and wet stamped with documentation forwarded, reviewed and APPROVED by the local powers that be, then that window or door cannot be used in any permitted construction.
So, youse guys who think it would be cool and proper to build windows and doors for your customers should check first if you have any thing in the wood pile that could jump up and bite you in the wallet.
The only restrictions we have here in Western Washington are for energy codes, Ralph. We can not legally build an exterior door, period. But wood windows are no problem, they have their own "u" value rating and that is figured into the energy requirements, which includes "r" values of walls, floors, and roofs, as well as type of heat source. You raise a good point though.
Dinosaur - "muntin", "mullion", "mutton"...whatever. It's those members that divide the glass within each sash. Those things. :) I don't use crank hardware. I use Whitco hinges http://www.vincentwhitney.com for casement or awning windows, then use simple "L" shaped latches. What are "French" type windows? Are the sash mounted on butt hinges? Saw lots of them in Germany, but they usually opened inward, always thought it would be hard to keep water shedding off them.
Casey - Just a couple years ago I started using West System epoxy. Great stuff. In fact, I think I must have first read about it here on Breaktime. I used to use whichever two part exterior epoxy I could find, but being here in Puget Sound area, it never was too hard to find something made for the boat building industry.
Jim,
Yes, French windows are double side-by-side windows that open inwards on butt hinges--and you're right, it's tricky to make them shed water...to the outside. (It's all too easy to have them shed it inside!)
The problem with non-crank windows that open outwards is summer. If you don't have some kind of 'remote control' mechanism, you can't put a screen on the window. This 'bugs' a lot of people.
My ex-girlfriend's sister had a 'cottage' built way out in the country in the west of Ireland about twenty years ago. The Irish do not use screens--nor window cranks for that matter. She drove the carpenter nuts insisting he had to find some way to install screens. What he finally did was route a slot through the bottom stop bar and hook hand-forged rods to the window through it. You had to push the bar to open the window, pull it in to close it, and to lock it I think he had a sleeve with a thumb screw slipped onto the rod. I don't remember. It worked, but I don't know why she bothered. No self-respecting bug is gonna invade a house heated by an open peat fire.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I put the screens on the inside, on cabinet door hinges.
Sounds interesting; I wouldn't mind seeing a photo if you've got any.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
While I got the scanner fired up, here's a couple shots of those Whitco hinges. They are stiff enough to hold even a large window in whatever position you open it to, but open and close easilly. They sell various sizes for various weight windows. Great hardware, simple, easy to install, inexpensive. They're pretty famous in the window industry.
Yeah, they look like the standard casement hardware I see on factory windows here, except there's no crank actuator. The hinge portion is similar.
I'm using mortised butt hinges or flush 'mini-gate' hinges. For closure, it's either cremone bars, small deadbolts top & bottom, or L-latches at center, depending on budget and window size. Found some beautifully machined half-round brass deadbolts a few years ago, but it musta been a fluke; I haven't seen them since and I've only got about 3 or 4 pairs left in stock.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
What Jim can't teach you in a thread, and what doesn't show in the pictures... Is the craftsmanship that he puts into them.
He is a master.
The window that you see called entry exterior... I have looked at that window very closely, inside and out. I was drooling. From what I could see, he addressed every strength, movement, etc, problem that I have ever seen. Yet kept it very simple. Elegantly so.
It is amazingly crafted, yet simple. Been there for 20 years, and I think it could stay for another couple centuries.
By now, I have embarrassed the heck out of Jim. But I just had to say something.
A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
Dinosaur - You know an affordable source for cremone bars? I wanted to use them a couple years ago but man oh man, were they ever expensive.
Luka - please, brotherman, don't start that stuff. Please?
he he he
Ok, ok. 'Nuff said.
; )
Cremone bars ? 'Zat some kinda new energy type candy bar ? A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
U. R. Right. The price of those things is off the chart. My best suggestion is to try junk shops that collect old windows etc., from buildings that were torn down.
Other than that, you could try http://www.leevalley.com , the website for Lee Valley Tools; they have a pretty good hardware collection and their prices are generally excellent.
There is an outfit called Metaux Boivin, I think--I don't have their catalogue but I'll check tomorrow and send you an e-mail if I find it. They have one of the best high-quality collections of traditional hardware I've ever heard about...but at a price, you can be sure. Maybe it won't hurt so much for you 'cause they're in CAN$.
There is also a window manufacturer near here called Les Meubles de Québec; they manufacture high-end traditional windows in modern materials (as well as other stuff); I don't have a link but maybe you can google it; they're located in Ste-Agathe, Quebec. I think their 800# is 1-800-TURNTILT. I once asked them if I could buy just their cremone bars for a gang of 8 windows I was making; the price (at that time, 7 years ago) was $CAN60 per. I went with dead-bolts top and bottom.
Last suggestion: if you know a local artisan-blacksmith, they're not hard to make up; maybe the guy would get off on the challenge and give you a good price...?
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Didn't find them on the Lee Valley site, but here's one of the expensive ones.
http://www.kilianhardware.com/807crembolim.html
At $485 a pop, sounds like it's time to get into the cremone bar business.....
-- J.S.
Jim:
"We can not legally build an exterior door, period. "
Duh, where have I been? Can you give any further details on that, like the wa.gov RCW #?, or is it Pierce Co. interpretation?
Art B.
Jim , Whats there thinking on that foolishness ? If you can build a window ,well a door is just an apprentice job.
Well, I, er, um...I'm not sure why.
I just know that last time I got a building permit reviewed and planned to build the doors and windows - it was in Thurston County, Art - they had a perscriptive u-value for "wood windows" in their energy code checklist so that was no sweat, but...what the heck was the probem with homemade doors? Now I gotta dig that file out and see if I can decipher why he nixed that.
To be honest I was just elated they were gonna let me build the windows, since so many people, like two different engineers and an architect, had told me they wouldn't approve that anymore, that I figured I'd put some steel doors in, then build exterior doors later.
Let's see...now where the heck is that file...gotta be here somewhere...
Jim keep me posted on this . It always amazes me that the mental midgets that can't draw a straight line with a ruler ,get gub'ment jobs and then become xperts on all aspects of our lives. You know the ones , "You can't make that yourself .it has to be made at a factory." types.
I build both windows and exterior doors in a town whose building inspectors go strictly by the book, or better. Apparently, my stuff passes. The state conservation dept. even buys windows from me. I live in NY, and have never been aked about any certifications, provided I followed drawings or specs stated.
I'm stumped. I've believed for 20 years the muntin was the vertical and the mullion was the horizontal. Don't remember who taught me that, though.
Is that 'Old House' site reliable info?
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I've checked with my glass supplier on thicknesses of insulated units, and he said he could provide them from 1/2"-7/8". Tempered or un-.
Yeah, that's the same here, Dave. What I was trying to describe earlier about thickness was really to explain why you need about a 1" deep rabbet.
Here's a couple photos, Dinosaur. Don't be too critical here, I built these almost 20 years ago. These were the prototypes. I have made some significant design improvements since these.