Adding foundation bolts after subfloor
I built a home with ICF exterior walls. The foundation uses ICF’s with 6″ concrete cavities to house a crawlspace and in one section a basement garage. Brickledge forms were placed at the top of the foundation walls to support the floor joists, in this case, 9″ I-Joists, at which point I transitioned to ICF’s with 4″ cavities for the above grade walls.
While under construction I didn’t hesitate in omitting foundation bolts for the treated lumber nailing ledger for the I joists. I didn’t see the point then and still don’t see the point now. However, my building inspector disagrees. He wants anchor bolts.
I’m looking for the most efficient method of installing these anchor bolts after the fact. The problem is how tight of a space I have to work with. Removing subfloor is not an option. Neither is bribing the inspector. Even if he accepts bribes I won’t pay them.
Thanks for any suggestions.
Replies
i got into this once when some bolts were missed.
i took a 5/8 masonary bit and welded a 16" extension on. then drilled down through the subfloor/sill and into the foundation. then from underneath i could set the bolt in epoxy and nut it.
the older i get ,
the more people tick me off
The older I get, the more I get bothered when masonry is mis-spelled masonary.You can buy long bits too and not have to jury rig one.If the situation is calling for a vertical bolt, drilling down thru from top like that is what I would do.
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what are ya,the spelling moderator?lol
i'm sure there are alot of guys on here the same as i was in school. who cares about english,spelling,correct sentences and for me typing. i knew in school as soon as i left typing class i would never see another typewriter.
so here i am hunting and pecking,misspelling masonary,thinking i should have paid a bit more attention back then.
i hit spell check ,but went ahead and left MASONRY,i will write it a 100 times.the older i get ,
the more people tick me off
when you epoxy the bolts, clean the hole out, then clean it again, and then again, use a bottle brush and vaccum. make sure it clean, its is very important, if you dont want to clean the holes, dont bother epoxing the bolts you just wasting time. oh did I tell you, clean the holes out
The BI has to inspect your cleaned holes here, altho they will watch you clean them again after they fail.
will it be OK if I just use high air pressure jeting to clean the hole? I think that works far better than vacumn
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Piffin,
Yes, but your blowgun must have a nozzle tube that reaches the bottom of the hole.
Brush then blow x 2. A vacuum above is helpful if you need to contain the grey cloud that comes up.
Jim x 3
Edited 7/26/2009 3:18 pm ET by jimjimjim
It was humour, playing off your tag line and my reputation for poor spelling.
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The bad thing is when masons spell it masonary also! LOL
"If all else fails, read the directions"
Is masonary anything like nucular?Whenever government "gives" to one it must first take from another.
Could be, plummer fits into that catagory also. ;)
"If all else fails, read the directions"
Isn't a Masonary a missionary for the Masons?
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Anchor bolts perform several important structural functions and should not be omitted. They hold the house down in the event of high winds and tornados. They hold the concrete walls together and keep them from spreading. They keep the house on the foundation in an earthquake.
Probably the solution now is to install epoxy anchors. Simpson makes just about every type you could need. They'll have to be stainless steel because you'll be in contact with treated lumber. Properly installed, epoxy anchors will achieve the full load rating you'll need.
The specific issue is drilling the holes. Through the floor might be effective but unfortunately hardwood has been installed.
As for the benefits of anchor bolts in this particular instance, the building inspector had no response when I asked him how is this any different than not requiring anchor bolts on the piers used to support my beams?
Anchor bolts hold nailing plates just fine but without requiring straps, etc., as in hurricane code areas they do nothing more than that...they just hold nailing plates.Whenever government "gives" to one it must first take from another.
Simpson may even have some other methods of tie down the inspector would accept, that are easier to install
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I'm having a hard time picturing this, because the cross section I see in my mind's eye is not one that would be hard to add tie bolts.
Is the ledge a 2x10 vertical in that ledge space or is it a 2x4 horizontal under the I-joists?
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2x4 horizontalWhenever government "gives" to one it must first take from another.
I'm sorry I haven't included a cross section...that would clear up the overiding issue. There is only about 9 inches of vertical space that I have to work with. That's not enough room for any hammer drill that I am familiar with.
It's a talented and creative bunch that frequents these posts. I'm thinking some good ole' brainstorming sessions will cure what ails my inspector.
Keep the suggestions coming. In the meantime I'll check out simpson's website.Whenever government "gives" to one it must first take from another.
With my first thought of the hammer drill and a long bit, I did not realize you already had a finished floor. It is rare for an inspector to be doing the frame and foundation inspection after the finished flooring is already laid.There are however, ways to do that, with glued in plugs after you drill through, or ways to patch finished flooring so as to be invisible. Just a PITA time consuming thing.You might even be able to call Simpson and describe the problem to their people if you don't see a product easily. They might have one to recommend, or because they are always developing new stuff, could have something in developement that is not yet in the catalouge online.
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Also, I am curious how the ends of the i-joists are separated from direct contact with the concrete. Does the ICF form do that? I forget that detail and diff ICF brands do it differently.
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sounds like he hung a ledger,then nail off of it, so nothing touching the concrete thats not treated.
you must of missed that while checking my spelling................the older i get ,
the more people tick me off
I'm not kidding. I would use a right angle drill and drill a 3/4" hole about 1" deep. I'd cut the bolts to about 2" long and glue them in with the nuts and washers on them.
If you don't need them, you have two choices: pay an engineer to prove it or fool the building inspector. I'd opt to fool the BI. I call it boogering. None of the houses I've boogered have fallen down yet so I'm comfortable suggesting it. Use your common sense even when the BI doesn't!
Those were also my thoughts exactly!
I agree that this one doesn't need anchor bolts, but just for the record, they are not what keeps a house from falling down Jim,.;)
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I guess my opinion about anchor bolts was formed in the early days of my framing career. We used to frame the houses with no sill plate. No foam. No green plates. No nothing. Just joist and rim sitting on concrete basement walls. Horrors!
The odd thing is....none of the houses have fell off the foundation. And I'm not talking about just one or two houses. I'm talking about hundreds of thousands of houses in the metro detroit area.
So, when I suggest faking one or two anchor bolts, I hardly lose any sleep over it.
I might also mention at this time that none of those house had simpson hangers. We toenailed the joist together and added "joist angle" and they are holding up nicely too.
My only issue with faking the bolts is losing the trust I have established with my BI should he discover my ruse.Whenever government "gives" to one it must first take from another.
My only issue with faking the boltshow about just doing the right thing, giving the client more than they paid for
I was under the impression that this was his own house. I wouldn't suggest faking anything with a sold job.
It's vaguely possible that you would be able to drill up through the brick ledge and install the bolts from the bottom.
Otherwise, you might consider whether some sort of strap would suffice. Perhaps an L (maybe welded from angle stock) with one leg atop the sill and the other bolted to the side of the ledge. Clear it with the inspector first, of course.
While under construction I didn't hesitate in omitting foundation bolts for the treated lumber nailing ledger for the I joists.
Were they on the plans?
Self designed and since I was performing the work myself I didn't make any detail drawings.
I've given a great deal of thought to "fooling" the building inspector. I'm not sure my personality will allow me to do this.
Drilling from below the brick ledge sounds the most promising so far.Whenever government "gives" to one it must first take from another.
can you get a power actuated fastener in there?
I live in a small town. You are giving the BI WAY too much credit. He wants the bolts because he's never seen it any other way. Making matters worse is that he's not an independent thinker. He even told me once that ICF's aren't in the code book. (For reference, we were using 2003 IRC at that time. There's an entire section devoted to ICFs but it didn't seem like the appropriate time to point that out)
Some sort of angled "hold down" that can be drilled through the side of the brick ledge form seems like a really good idea as well.
Back to the bolts being necessary...I'm no engineer so I still don't see how JUST the bolts are really effective. A chain only being as strong as the weakest link...the bolts are great for holding down the nailing ledger but the we just toenail I joists to the ledger. So all this talk of uplift and tying walls together seems pointless when ultimately it's 10D angled nailing holding things.Whenever government "gives" to one it must first take from another.
Nearly forgot...not sure about room enough for powder actuated fastener. I assume you were going to suggest the powder actuated fastner anchor bolts? My question about that is that we have to go through the 2x4 plate.Whenever government "gives" to one it must first take from another.
See if the inspector will accept one of these. The FJA looks pretty good.
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/fap-fja-fsa.asp
Joe Carola
Edited 7/26/2009 3:17 pm ET by Framer
Yeah, the FJA attached to the side of the floor joist would be better than anchoring the plate, IMO. You would need to add fillers to the joist ends since IIRC the OP said they were I-joists.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Steve,
Simpson makes retrofit brackets to anchor sill to concrete foundation - drilling into foundation is then done horizontally. See if these will work for you.
Blue - NO NO NO! Anyway, in my area any epoxied in anchors must be witnessed or pull tested.
Jim x 3
Lots of interesting ideas
I would take the high road, not try to fool the inspector (people before you have tried) and inspectors often figure it out.
You do have the option of talking to an engineer, and perhaps they can engineer an anchor that face mounts to the foundation and secures to something wooden.
I would hope since the oak is down that the trim is not and I would run my drill right down thru the edge of the drywall behind where the baseboard, 1/4 round, etc will hide any 5/8" hole.
I'd run down thru the wood and drywall with an 18" auger bit and then run a 5/8" hammer drill down thru the plate.
Might need someone below guiding to the right position on the plate.
heck, for that matter, punch a hole in the drywall and drill thru the sill straight down.
Drywall is easy to patch if all the trim is already on
"Drilling from below the brick ledge sounds the most promising so far" thought it sounded like the goofiest so far. You would be drilling up instead of down or horizontally, so that is the most physically challenging for your human body.And for effectiveness or winning aproval, it is poor, because you are drilling ona thin edge of crete and likely to simply flake the edge off, weaking rather than strengthening the structure. I'd glue in Jim's Fauxbolts first before I did that.
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If your basement walls were not designed as retaining walls the floor acts as a shear diaphragm for the tops of the walls in the same manner a slab does at the bottom of the walls. Anchor bolts are not simply to resit uplift but also to transfer loads to the floor diaphragm.
This may be the reason your BI is insisting on them .
Check out the Simpson line of products for Seismic retrofits and see what you can find that will bolts to the face of the wall and ties things together.
I know there are through bolt anchors that require drilling and bolting through the wall with nut and washer on the outside of the wall.
"This may be the reason your BI is insisting on them ."If so, the inspector doesn't have a clue, since this floor system rests within the concrete wall in the same way a slab rests within the walls at the base.
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Perhaps... ""The foundation uses ICF's with 6" concrete cavities to house a crawlspace and in one section A BASEMENT GARAGE. "" The basement garage has what holding the top garage door walls in place? Joists resting on concrete ledger? Which way do his joists run with respect to the garage door wall?
In either case he has at least one daylight wall if he has a garage under his house. Without a section of the building neither of us has a clue.
Reads to me that he has at least 8' of wall, floor joists and then goes up with more ICF's. So maybe a 17'-18' tall wall with no shear diaphragm anchors in the middle and perhaps two large openings supported on a column in the middle?
Engineering ? Maybe it is just my experience around seismic construction/retaining/basement walls and commercial work but holding the tops of walls in place isn't quite the same as keeping them apart against soils pressure from the outside which is what the slab does.
The slab has to resist lateral compression, the tops have to be restrained against compression, shear , and tension loads.
I will stick with my comments until I read more about the situation, his commentary on his BI not withstanding, as I know too many builders who bad mouth BI's out of habit , not knowledge. And my experience is that "Boggering" just leaves snot on your fingers while you hope nobody saw you picking it....
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
agreed, there were a couple clarifying questions I asked that he didn't answer so I am left alone with my assumptions and you with your goat
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I have attached photos for clarity. The simpson plate suggested by others here looks like a good fix. However, I may just have some pieces of angle iron fabricated and bolt them through sideways. I work at a vocational school and can have the welding classes do it.
On the issue of lateral loads and whether or not it is necessary to use anchor bolts; I live in Middle TN. For the purposes of residential construction seismic is NEVER considered so the only lateral load that is would be unbalanced backfill. As you can see in the first photo the maximum unbalanced backfill amounts to about 4 to 5 feet. (The crawlspace slopes from 30" to 8' where the garage door is located. The thickness of poured wall (6") combined with rebar placement was more than adequate for dealing with this according to manufacturer's specs. Also, the I joists run from front to back.
As for the tall wall(s) on the back (photo 2) there is an issue of wind loading perhaps but once again, according to manufacturer's specs, the rebar placement used was adequate.
My BI specifically said the bolts would be required to prevent uplift from winds and tornados. I asked him why he never requires them for the treated lumber anchoring plates on the piers used under support beams and he had no response.
On that issue my point is this: Engineering-wise I may in fact need some sort of lateral support that the joists could provide. However, when I anchor the mudsill to the concrete but only nail the joists to the mudsill it occurs to me that the 10D tonails become the weak link making the anchor bolts pointless. If he had made me anchor the joists to the mudsill after anchoring the mudsill to the concrete or if he had me anchor the joists directly to the concrete then I could see the point.Whenever government "gives" to one it must first take from another.
If you're not using stainless or HDG the nails will be gone in a year or so anyway.
Thanks for the photos and the explanations. Have a much clearer picture of your situation now.
How is that rim band ( if that is what I am seeing) at the ends of the I joists attached to the joists?
Is the foam from the upper wall ICF blocks behind the what appears to be a rim band ?
Here is another supplier of retrofit anchors that might work.
This one has uplift load tables supplied which the Simpson didn't seem to.
http://www.uspconnectors.com/ca-catalog/en_pdfs/38-39.pdf
SFA6 and SFA8 towards the bottom of the page.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
The lower 6" wall was poured up to the brick ledge form. Then the floor was framed. Yes, that is rim board you see. It was end nailed into the I joists per manufacturers recommendation. Yes, that is polystyrene from the upper wall form behind the I joist.
I like the retrofit "bracket" on the link you provided.
Thanks.Whenever government "gives" to one it must first take from another.
How about an "outside the box" idea... Remove the base board, carve out the foam directly above the joists ( say every 6' O.C.) Make angled brackets with a 9/16" diam. hole one one leg and a 1/8" diam. hole on the other. (Actually Simpson or one of their competitors may have such an angle plate already on shelf)
Bolt the one leg into the 6" wall and the other leg gets screwed down into the top flange of the joists.
Patch the drywall and reapply the base. Not a code reviewed method but may satisfy the BI if you can get an Eng. to sign off on it.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
You have vinyl siding!
If you aren't into fauxbolts, it's a very simple matter to remove the exterior siding to gain access to drill. You are looking at a one hour fix per side.
I'd do the fauxbolts myself unless I was in a seismic area.
"The thickness of poured wall (6") combined with rebar placement was more than adequate for dealing with this according to manufacturer's specs."This makes no sense to me.
If you built this place, YOU are the manufacturer!
If you are referring to the ICF maker, they do not spec specific rebar placement because that varies according to local and site needs. one size does NOT fit all.I asked earlier what you used to separate between ends of Ijoists and the concrete and didn't get an answer unlessI missed it. What is the OSB I am seeing in the last photo? It is possible you can shoot thru it into the 6" of crete wall there.
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The osb you are seeing is rim joist. Behind the rim joist is the 2 and 3/4" of polysytrene that makes up the inner part of the ICF.
You are mistaken about manufacturer spec, at least with the brands I have used. (LOGIX, Eco-Block, Reward) There are tables they provide where you "input" the variables and it gives you the engineering.
Sorry about missing that question. I wasn't avoiding it I just overlooked it. Whenever government "gives" to one it must first take from another.
I've used two out of three of those ICFs and was not aware they offered tables to do your own engineering that way.Since that is a soloid rim joist, there is no reason you couldn't solve the problem by drilling wedge bolts or epoxy wall bolts horizontally thru iot into the crete rim
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I agree but as I indicated before the BI is demanding this based more on "tradition" than actual engineering need. I might be able to get him to go for it though. I need to call him today/tomorrow to see what will make him happy anyway.
So far, this is the simplest solution I've heard. It's either this or the brackets. If he'll go for it I like this.
Surprised you didn't know about the tables. My favorite, REWARD, even has various wind regions mapped out in their binder showing wind loading tables. They also have lintel span tables, backfill load tables, you name it they have it.
Others have similar tables just not as detailed.Whenever government "gives" to one it must first take from another.
Reward is the one I haven't used.But my history withthem goes back s far, they may none of them have had them when I started andnobody ever updated me on what is available.I learn more here at BT than most places.If youyr inspetor is so ignorant that neither of these solutions will satisfy him, you will have to get an engineer to slap him silly with a pretty piture and aletter
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My BI used to be a plumber and despite this fact I once had to get him a letter from a CE to prove to him that placing a water and sewer line in the same trench was ok.
This was after I quoted the actual portion of 2003 IRC that specifically mentions this.
He's a really nice guy but a bit stubborn at times.Whenever government "gives" to one it must first take from another.
stevenplane,
Once the picture becomes clear, so does the solution: bolt the rim joist into the 4" ICF wall horizontally. You could even pin it in with sections of rebar. If they are ever loaded, they will be loaded in shear, not in tension.
I assume there's plenty of steel across the cold joint from the brick ledge to the 4" wall.
I've never poured a wall with a brick ledge. How do you brace it? From the outside? Or do you install short bracing on that wall?
Piffin:
What you are looking for is on page 13 in this Logix manual http://www.logixicf.com/media/library/product_manual/Section%206.1%2040ksi%20111507.pdf
Ron
Of course, the brick ledge can be place turned in or turned out. I have braced it both ways. All the way up on the flat side and "short braced" on the angled side. Neither was the "holy grail" of bracing. Each has it's own advantage depending on the situation.
I always use 2 1/2" metal track, the kind used for metal framing, on the top row of forms for stiffening and to protect the teeth if I'm doing two pours. You could also attach wood bracing to those tracks too if you wanted the extra bracing.
There was plenty of steel added at the cold joint.Whenever government "gives" to one it must first take from another.
stevenplane,
I think everybody uses the steel stud channel unless they are forming with Logix or Quad-Lock. You place your trust in tape then.
I have encouraged a couple of customers to do the brickledge form for floor support, but nobody has gone for it. I think I would like the look of that brickledge inside a house with a coat of EIFS base and plaster over that curving up to the ceiling.
I suppose there is really nothing stopping me from faking it anyway if I can convince somebody to pay for it.
Back to your original question, I think that the drywall and baseboard installation on top of the floor system would provide pretty near the same hold-down strength as a typical anchor bolt installation. This is not like a wooden house.
Ron
Top chord open web floor trusses can be installed over brickledge in such a way as to hide them so it appears like any other house from below.
Maybe you can get someone to go for that.Whenever government "gives" to one it must first take from another.
ok, if you have a floor installed, I see two options.
A. drill down through he wall plate if the walls are still open... I doubt they are.
B. drill on an angle from the outside, through the wall, if it is not finished or if it is still accessible.
Otherwise, if the bolts were not on the plan you have an argument.... or if you can get an engineer to sign off, you might be good to go.
I do not completely understand what situation you have that is reasonable to exlcude the bolts.
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
Check out the Simpson FAP
If you can drill horizontally take a look at the Simpson UFP:
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/UFP.asp
It's made specifically for a retrofit.
You have the winning entry. I knew I'd seen something like that in their papers once
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I haven't read all the responses yet, but we've had to use Simpson UFP plates before, and I believe they would work in this situation.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Just don't call the inspector back.
masonary, its like cement finishers, never in my life have I seen anybody finish cement.
Maybe cement finishers work in the masonary position. you've never seen them do it because they turn out the lights and crawl under the sheets.
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Another vote for the UFP.
Those things are great- you can use them whether the sill plate is offset from the foundation, and they can even be applied through the face of an existing shear wall if you suspect the bolting hidden behind the plywood is inadequate.
k