Hey Fellas, This fitout is for a medical office. Pediatric speach therapy and I believe some therapy for motor skills. Does anyone see any snags? (i.e. ADA stuff- code issues). Client asked my to go over it and ask me to give comments to architect.
Thanks
When deck posts exceed what the prescriptive code tables allow, it's time to consult a structural engineer for post sizing and possible bracing.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial NowGet instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
Does all of it need to be ADA compliant?
It looks like two of the restrooms are a might tight, at 6x6, for ADA compliance. The one in the waiting/reception area looks ok, but no way are the other two.
The two bathrooms are definitely too small. Funny that wasn't taken into account seeing how the larger bathroom actually has an ADA compliant radius drawn in it.
Also on the tight side are the kitchen and the supply closet. Imagine the difficulty accessing those areas if you were in a wheelchair. In fact, the 6x8 storage room looks like it could be a wheelchair trap with the in swing door.
It appears the exterior door in the billing office is too small, probably just a typo but should be 36".
ADA may require you to provide a lowered reception desk. I don't see it done often, but I know a guy who was forced to in a dentist office.
good luck
As others have said, ada in bathroom seems tight. Door can't swing more than 12" into 5' radius. What about door going from hall to waiting, shelf eliminates 18" ada. Also therapy room on right side w/ closet doesn't seem to have 18".
Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
My understanding is that not every bathroom has to be ADA, only that there be one in the suite available that is ADA
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I agree, and that one compliant one looks pretty tight. I just finished a law office with 4 floors and each toilet (1 man and woman's per floor) had the same situation, door swinging into the 5' radius. We were able to make it work with 11" overlap. Too damn close for my comfort. 8 restrooms with marble floors and walls, if someone changes a finish or countertop you could be screwed.
I was glad to see the final inspection go through. I don't understand why Architects cut it so close. Give us a little to play with please. Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
Here in our Western NC county they usually will allow one unisex ADA compliant for that type of use and size. When I did the Credit Union I had to sweet talk a litle to get him to allow two unisex ones, one for customers and one in the restricted area. I taped together two lay-in troffer boxes and cut a 60" disc and had it laying in one bath. He did not measure anything after that. I had prints of the NC acces. code pages laying in the sink.For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
I've copied pages from the code books before, They were not to happy. I don't think he liked me at all.
Lou
That is correct I believe.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Yes, but for male and female? Both ada.
Man, I should just stick with cabinetry work!!!
But I go were the $ is... Its ok I kinda like doing what we used to do. Its been awhile so I gotta ask alot of Q's
Thanks everyone you've all been a big help?
I thought the unisex concept was everywhere now.One more thing I see;The two storage rooms just off the billing room - I might want the one of them accessible only from that billing room. That might make it easier to control access to private stuff and do the locks, but it all depends on how the us3ers will be functioning there.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piff, the ceiling height to the trusses is 11 ft. Can i use wood studs or should I stick to 20gauge metal? Steels more than double in cost. The existing side is wood and built a year ago. Is it too much of a run for a 2by4? Am I asking for issues? There is a sprinkler system in place above and below ceiling joists.
thanks Lou
Edited 8/27/2008 6:41 am ET by loucarabasi
for commercial and for that tall I would rather do steel studs. Wood seems cheaper, but when you fight the curls and throw more out, it is not so much...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I don't know anything about ADA compliance, but it seems like that one bigger bathroom could benefit from a pocket door. Then there is nothing swinging into the wheelchair.
Our commercial door and frame supplier hates pocket doors with a passion. The hardware that is available doesn't stand up to heavy duty use in a commercial environment where they get used all the time. The hardware also presents graspability concerns for ADA regs. I'd have to double check if pocket doors meet ADA.
From my experience in the Chicago area with the Illinois Accessibility Code (modified version of ADA), here are some problems that I see:
Two out of the three toilet rooms don't meet ADA and never will at 6'x6'. I want to say that we use 6'-6" x 7'-0" as the minimum size.
Didn't try to print and scale the drawing but it looks like you're missing 12" clearance to nearest obstruction on the pull side of doors into the 14x13 office in bottom right corner and the storage closet between the Billing Office and the Kitchen.
You're also missing 18" on the pull side of a lot of doors.
Here, you'd need either a bottled water dispenser or a drinking fountain to meet code.
Bifold doors work better than pairs of hinged doors at coat closets in small rooms.
Kitchen is really tight and may be borderline failing ADA accessibility depending on the table they select. There is a specific clear floor area requried for a side approach at a sink. I'd have to double check the book.
One of the reception counters needs to be at 30" aff.
Projections into accessible means of egress can only be 4". That means the hallways with reception counters need to made wider or the counters modified to only project 4".
State plumbing code here would require a mop basin in the suite unless there is a common janitor closet for the building that this suite would have direct access to.
Counters with sinks in them can only be 34" high which means custom cabinetry. Also presents problems with putting a dishwasher in a building. I want to say that GE makes a unit that will fit under a 34" counter.
Lou, having designed and overseen the construction of Children's Theapy clinics, there is one point outside of code requirements that you may want to talk to you client about.
That is a viewing room with one way glass adjacent to your therapy room. This permits the therapist to work with the children, while giving the parents a chance to look in and see how they are doing. The therapist I worked with, wanted the parents away from the child so as to minimize parents direct involvement during the therapy. A microphone in the therapy room with a speaker in the viewing room would also be required. The room wouldn't have to be large. But enough room for a couple of chairs.
Consider it a piece of mind for the parents.
Impossible is an opinion.
Why is ADA compliance even your issue. It should be the job of the architect, and of the plans examiner. Those are the the people with the training, skills, and books to decifer these types of issues.
I think of two things in responce to that.First, I think it is great when an archy or owner asks me to review plans and see what might need adjustment or improvement BEFORE it gets cast in stone. Makes everyone part of a team working together.Second, it would be ME that has to deal with the inspector or has to change things if it misses inspection. I would rather get those changes done on paper beforehand.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Lou, I read all the other posts and they are all well considered. Some clarifications though.
The biggest one is that the space's ADAAG requirements are the job of the Architect and in this case there are a couple areas I would comment on. (Since I don't have the specifications to review I will assume that all the appropriate hardware and signage and closers, etc. is in them. And, I don't know the Construction Classification and Use Group the Architect is using to determine his parameters).
If the Code review indicates that the Occupancy Load is over 15 persons then there is a requirement for toilet rooms to be designated for each sex, and be compliant. One of the two smaller toilet rooms probably does not have to be compliant as there are, or may be, two, that are OK. And at 8x6 is OK. As there may be a need/requirement for a second Code compliant T'room you can steal space from the adjacent storage room. I would consider doing that.
Code does say that the door should be outswinging but I have had only one instance where that was an absolute. Pocket doors are not allowed for doors where they may be used for accessibility, period.
I see that most of the passage doors are "centered" in their hallways. Any means of egress requires that, even in the employee areas, the approach be 18". You should be able to lay the frame up to the wall and get the 18" that way. All doors will have to be 36" unless into a space that will not be occupied, storage, closet, etc.
There is a serious pinch point at the door from the reception area to the Therapy area, go left on dwg. It appears that this is the station for patients to discuss or pay their bill. The approach appears to be less than 18" and the counter behind it is way too close, caused mostly by the overhang. (ADAAG requires a portion , usually 36"wide, of any reception countertop to be at 34"high maximum, 32" is a general rule of thumb). Pull back the wall and countertop?
As to a janitor's sink, not seeing it on the dwg indicates to me that there is one available in the building (or it got forgotten?). Drinking fountains are another matter. You can provide the bottled water type (one electrical outlet, one DF ;) ).
Boiler7904, or was it you, that talked about 2x4wood vs steel studs. (Boy, do I wish I had stock in steel framing systems!!!). Since you have a fully sprinklered space I would venture a guess and say that the 2x4 system would be fine, unless of course all the interior partitions are load-bearing. The initial Code review has some effect on that decision, "Consult with your Architect".
I hope my comments and observations don't (expletive deleted by writer) off anyone on the development side. And please don't go banging on my fellow design professional TOOooo bad. It may get back to me.
Way too long but there were issues. ciao, ted
I have been meaning to mention to you that I for one appreciate your input. For being one of "Those People" You are alright! Thank You .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
There are many a times where I would much rather be one of your people.
Thanks, ciao, ted "You can have it fast, good or cheap. You can only have two of the three. Fast and good, it won't be cheap. Good and cheap, it won't be fast. Fast and cheap, it won't be good. Now, what's your choice?"
Ted, Thank youfor the info. It's much appreciated. Its been awhile since I've done this type of work. Trying to educated myself when I'm engaged in conversation over the job.
Thanks again, Lou C
Nice post. I just started laying out walls at a new project this week. It is a large printing facility. I've written14 RFI's already. I am going to become very familiar to the design team. ; ^ ) Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
Being on a first name basis with that design team let's them know that you are going to ensure a complete job and a correct one. That's just being a good contractor!
The whole point of any design is, ultimately, that the end user gets exactly what they envisioned.
All that and you don't get stuck picking up the cost on something that you should have asked about, you didn't, and end up taking the blame for not asking.
(I did a set of drawings for a small factory and had over 60 changes to the design, while the drawings were in for permit plan review!).
ciao, ted "You can have it fast, good or cheap. You can only have two of the three. Fast and good, it won't be cheap. Good and cheap, it won't be fast. Fast and cheap, it won't be good. Now, what's your choice?"
Ted, Can you explain the 18'' deal to me?
thanks again, Lou
You approach a door that swings open toward you. The 18" is on the handle/latch side from the wall. I just checked this again and found(forgot) that the 18" is the minimum and that 24" is preferred.The theory is that an individual in a wheelchair or walker needs to approach the door using all of the 18" to reach out, open the door, swing it out of the way and pass thru. Assuming that there is an ADAAG compliant closer (delayed action to close), required! (Won a lawsuit for a restaurant client over ADAAG delay closer, :o) ).
The distance on the other side of the same door needs to be only 12" because they don't need the distance from the wall because the door swings away from them.
One other thing about doors. The minimum clear width through a door opening is, by FEDERAL code, 32". That is the distance measured from the face of the door, when it is opened to 90degrees, to the opposite side stop. (Section 4.13.5, Clear Width). A 2'-8" door does not comply. A 2'-10" door does but is usually consider close to a custom size thus all the 3'-0" doors.
Did I answer the question. Hope so.
ciao, ted "You can have it fast, good or cheap. You can only have two of the three. Fast and good, it won't be cheap. Good and cheap, it won't be fast. Fast and cheap, it won't be good. Now, what's your choice?"
"Pocket doors are not allowed for doors where they may be used for accessibility, period."My hotel new build in Boston last year had ADA suite(s), bathrooms had entry doors either side with a pocket door in the middle separating the tub side from the john side of the room.
I was surprised to say the least. Perhaps because you could go around to the other door it was OK, but I would have eliminated the pocket door entirely. (Open plan bathroom, as it were)But, I did spend some time looking up pocket door hardware, and did find an ADA compliant handle/lock......so I'm not sure your blanket statement is true.
I don't understand why pocket doors aren't allowed or are shied away from. It seems like it is much easier to slide the door out of the way and roll through than it is to open a sometimes heavy door and try to maneuver through before it closes. Plus you don't have door swing to contend with when laying out the room, leaving more floor space for moving around.
If I may I would like to retract my blanket statement regarding pocket doors. I was thinking in terms of means of egress routes and the like.
They are allowed but there are approach requirements that are a bit difficult to comform to and so most designs don't use them. Square footage = function = money. The issue of their use in exit passageways is one that I would find an interesting research project. (I'm going to read up on that, carefully)
My spanking should also include the use of the accordian style doors....allowed.
I spec pocket doors wherever there is a pinch point or the door swing space creates an ackward traffic flow but I'ver never considered them for ADAAG toilet rooms unless it was not the primary entry door (?). There are firms out there that sell a pocket door kit which allows for any size and style of door to be installed on their frame and structure. And also any weight.
A lot of the ADAAG requirements deal with manuveurability at or around doors, counters, appliances. You can read that as "access space" if you wish.
Thanks for the correction. ted "You can have it fast, good or cheap. You can only have two of the three. Fast and good, it won't be cheap. Good and cheap, it won't be fast. Fast and cheap, it won't be good. Now, what's your choice?"
Thanks for the info, The Architects making changes, He designed the building in accordance with the existing space which was understood was an expansion and its not. Seperate tenant for existing. This has to stand alone. I told him. I dont know where the mixup started. One of the realtors move.
Lou
My first thought was not to critique the plan but to wonder why you were ask to check for ADA compliance. That should be the Architects responsibility. Whose fault is it going to be if you sign off on it and it turns out that you overlooked something. ADA is only the federal regulations. In many areas there are state, county and city regulations that may be more stringent. If your client has doubts, he/she should have someone that specializes in this check out the plan. There is a lot more to consider than the size of the restrooms. I'm looking at a publication put out by the state of Texas that is about an inch thick. It covers everything from parking your car to the location on the toilet paper dispenser. Something to think about.
Having slogged through several clinics as TI work under Texas Accessibility Standards (TAS), this is what I'd expect to see on review:
Main Entrance--Fail unless auto openers provided both sides of the door (the outside push-to-open button also has to be clear of the door swings, which can mean needing a pedestal and bollards 4' out fro mthe building--under fun).
All Toilet Rooms Fail.
Under TAS, you need 7'-6" wide and 7'-0" deep to get a wall hung, ADA-compliant lav and correctly grab barred w/c installed and not interfere with any of the door requirements. (W/C needs to be 18" OC from its adjacent wall; ditto most Lavs, too.) Note too, that also requires flush trash recepticals and the like. If you need "code" calls in the toilet rooms the width can have to increase as well.
Reception--Fail
Reception has counters extending into the required door accessibilty clearances. Reception has no ADA-comp0liant counter space on either side of the counter (ADA applies to employees as well as customers).
The Therapy Room adjacent to Reception has a door that fails in both directions.
Both Exam Room doors fail. The size of the case work needs to be decreased to provide clearance.
Note that the Exam and Therapy room casework has to have either accessible knee spaces under the sinks, or side access. Some portion of the upper case work must extend down to 10" above the ADA sink (usually 44" AFF over the 34" AFF ADA counter top).
The hall back to the storage area needs to be 5' wide, the storage area door at the end of the hall fails on the approach side. (Note that accessibility in storage areas is a dicey are for reviewers; many take the view that the employee sent to such areas might use a wheelchair--and EEOC is very clear that you cannot not hire a person just because the closets are not suitable for them to work within them.)
The kitchen does not contain enough information to pass.
Casework around the sink must be accessible, and an upper cabinet much be within 10" over it. (Note that if you install a d/w, i/m. or u/c ref'r that most of those are predicated on counter tops being 34.5" AFF for 36" AFF high tops--this can require a "hump" next to 34" AFF ADA compliant counters.) Probably, the "L" shape should be reduced to a single wall of casework.
There is no indicated water fountain, nor cooler, and three will be required; one on the public (wating) room side of things, and another in each of the private areas. Or, bubblers on all of the sinks can be installed, or free-standing water coolers used, but they cannot intrude on passageway minimum widths at all.
At least it appears that all of the doors are 3-0 which will help things no end.
As a non-accessibility aside, there is no indicated spot to secure meds (even if not used, about half the accreditation agencies the medicos turn the plans into recommend labeling such an area.) Also, there's not nearly enough waiting room, and no provision for the all-but-required tv (could put a shelf in the "V" of reception above the head of the reception window/cased opening).
This looks like what the docs usually bring in and say "What do I need to get a Permit? We're starting next week."
It's not ADA compliance that is the primary issue - it is compliance with the NJ Barrier-Free Subcode - NJAC 5:23-7.1 (2007) which is based on ICC/ANSI 117.1 (2003) as modified by http://www.state.nj.us/dca/codes/code_assist_internet/barrier_free/pdf/Sub_7_on_8_6_07.pdf
Compliance with the ADA and statements to that effect will not get you through plan review. It's NJ Barrier-Free Subcode which is not exactly the same thing.
The IBC NJE is on line for free - here is the link - http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/newjersey/NJ_Building/Building_Frameset.htm ANSI you have to pay for.
and yes you have problems
pocket doors are prohibited
and your Architect is in violation of State Titleblock requirements
Jeff
Edited 8/28/2008 2:29 am ET by Jeff_Clarke
Jeff, Thanks for the advice.I'm meeting friday morn with Architect. All this info will keep me from looking like a moron. He's able to work in NJ to. Where are you in NJ?
Thanks again, Lou
I enjoy working with the other trades up front and think it's great to get as many eyes on things to bring up questions that otherwise might get overlooked. I also enjoy finding creative ways to solve unique problems if things don't go right somewhere down the road.
However, I am careful to separate my problems from those of others. If you are the type who likes to state things in a very positive, for sure kind of way, I can see the possibility that since you are being paid as an expert for a professional opinion on the ADA codes, that an error or omission could be attributable to you if something doesn't come out right.
"You sent your expert on ADA compliance to us and he said, "blaw 6'x6' blaw 18" blaw blaw" so we only drew it as he requested."
Of course a sharp architect wouldn't let that situation happen, but of course not everyone in the building trades is sharp!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Central NJ
Re: Pocket Doors (from IBC 2006 NJE):View Image
Horizontal Doors as a means of egress are the power-operated type
Jeff