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Does anybody know of a computer design and drafting program that is cheap, easy to use, will print plans that meet minimum requirements for most permit applications and does a material take off.
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Replies
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Dean,
I don't really want to hit you below the belt but.......
Arn't we getting a bit lazy?
What ever happened to hard work, skill and expertise?
How about some software that will find you a job, do it for you and then deposit the money in the bank while you're at the beach?
Sorry,
Ed. Williams
*Come on Ed......don't be piggy, tell us the name of your software and where we can get it.
*
Dean
As we all know, AutoCad is the industry standard when it comes to computer aided design. I find it has way too many bells and whistles for architectural use. It is expensive and hard to learn, however alot of people use it so courses are readily available.
I have in the past purchased inexpensive programs like 3D Home Architect....cheap, easy, but not detailed enough for the working drawings that I do. Back in 94, I bought a program called Datacad 5. It was an architectural program, reasonably priced ($300 or $400 American). I used the study books and actually made quite a bit of progress quickly.
Unfortunately, I got ahead of myself in the tutorials and attempted 3D stuff and couldn't solid surface my wire frame drawings.....something to do with the graphics card. Anyhow I had to call for support in California and I wasn't impressed with the service (plus it's an expensive call from Ontario)...I gave up and now the program collects dust on my shelf.
Back in 94, the program was DOS based. You might check to see if it's available in a windows version and see what it's like. I don't know if it does material take-offs or estimates. I'm going to take a look at Archicad in the new year. It is supposed to be a good program and it is available on leasing structure which makes it's high ticket price easier to handle.
So, I haven't been much help...but I've been more constructive than your initial responder.
Donna
P.S.
I would imagine that if you do source something interesting, you'll let me know? Also, are you looking for a cabinetry program like Cabnetware, or 2020, or a drawing package like Autocad? Good luck
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I have had a number of CAD programs and found none of them to be "easy". Beware - the cheaper they are, they "buggier" they will be. They probably will cause you plenty of frustration and little production. Currently I am using (with moderate success) a program that used to go by the name of MiniCad and the latest version is called Vectorworks. It is a highly capable program - I will only use 5% of it's capabilities in my lifetime - on the otherhand it seems to be quite stable and with a disciplined approach - learnable. Costs around $600.
*I don't know of any product that will do everything you want it to do that won't cost you a mint and take you several months to learn.The first cadd I used was Medusa Cad. It was a monster that ran in unix and needed a touchpad like those at McDonalds, a mouse like thing that was a set of crosshairs over a menu of options, a keyboard, and a joystick. I then used AutoCadd. This program is GREAT!!!...if you can take the time to learn it. It can do unbelievable things but it's not easy to use.I have an old DOS cad program called Generic Cadd made by the makers of Autodesk (the same people that make autocadd). It can do much more than I will ever use including Bill of Materials. Setting these things up just aren't worth the time, I'll just use unit costing where ever possible.This program was copywrited in 1984, and updated in 1991. It's survived through three computers in 9 years and I hope it works on the next one.
*This is definitely one topic it's worth going to the archives for. Every major package is discussed somewhere, there are examples of what you can do with some of the programs, and some good food for thought like Ron Strohbecks topic relating to powerful architectural programs in the hands of people who don't know how to build houses (I'm not saying that's you, but there are plenty of people jumping into the deep end, because the computer makes it look like you can pull it off).For the record, I have two general CAD programs,and I'm planning to buy a cabinet design program. I may also buy an architectural program; when I do, it will be one designed as such, like Vectorworks or Archicad, rather than jump through hoops with a general program.
*As indicated above, the topic of CAD and drafting programs has been covered a number of times on this forum and a search should give you a number of threads. There is also a listing for 16 or so software web sites in the "Sites to See" sidebar from the Fine Homebuilding home page (http://www.taunton.com/fh/) The list is at:software web links list
*I used a board from 1970, until I tried AutoCad in 1984, in Beta. I felt that I could never become proficient because I don't spend enough long blocks of time with the program. So, I went back to my board. Tried Chief Architect in 1997 and have found it to be 98% of what I need. Now with version 6.0 , it's even more powerful.This is a program for a serious design professional, and is a major commitment. In terms of money, its not much, $895. But don't waste your time if you're looking for an easy solution. It doesn't exist.....Kind of like vent / no vent, you'll see opinions mostly between Chief Architect, Softplan, and ArchiCad. But I would visit the web sites, and some trade shows before I made a decision.here's Chief Architect:http://www.ChiefArchitect.comand here's a dealer in Maine, who also offers training:http://www.berryvalesoftware.comthere is also a Chief user group: http://www.egroups.com/chief-users/
*That was so lame I went to Dave's site and took a mini-lesson in links.......... (I hear you Joe !)anyway , try this for Chief Architect http://www.ChiefArchitect.com/and a dealer in Maine who also offers training http://berryvalesoftware.com/and there is a Chief Users Group with examples of Chief Drawingshttp://www.egroups.com/docvault/chief-users/..
*I started with 3D Home Architect and one day walking through a trade show saw Chief Architect. It turns out Chief is the full scale profesional version of 3D Home. That made the learning curve much quicker. I recently upgraded to Chief 6.0. For the money and the features you get, you can't beat it.
*I use AutoCAD R14 and R 2000 here at school ......and have tried AutoCAD LT 98 and Chief Architect. Mike's right about there being no simple solution. It will take some effort to learn any software. For what you are looking for, ease of use and material take offs, I'd suggest Chief Architect ........and take a look at Softplan, too (they have a free demo disk). AutoCad LT is less money ($350-$400), but I don't believe it will do what you want it to.
*Mike,Microsoft Works 3.0.That's all I use. Mostly just the word processor and one spreadsheet to keep me informed of who's late with a payment. That's it.I'm not against software. I'm just against lazy. If your computer crashes with all your information, what do you do? I wouldn't trust my business to something as fragile as a mother board and hard drive. Software is a good tool, but if you don't know how to do your job without it, doesn't that make you just a tool that your software uses to justify itself? Where is the talent in that? I say, learn how to do something the hard way first. Then you can use the tools to make your job easier. If the computer crashes you can just close the doors and watch TV, or you can sharpen up the pencil and keep working.Ed. Williams
*I offer my vote for VectorWorks. I use it primarily as a design tool, but it has take-off capability, a scripting language, pretty good rendering with LightWorks add-on, and many other features that I don't even know about.It's got far more power than I need, but the learning curve is pretty easy. I never work in 2D anymore.Steve
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I am currently using Vectorworks and trying my best to learn it. I have sent for the aftermarket CD by Windows Academy and fine them to be of little help. The CDs and the tech. support both are by people who think you already have a vast knowledge of the system. The program looks like it works alright but is perhaps more than I need. Whew!!!!!
I am open for suggestions.. HELP.........
Bill Thomas
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Bill.....I'm sure Steve can give you some input about Vector Works.
.here's what I've found with Chief Architect.....
You watch the training tapes, you read the manual, you try some samples, if Steve can put you on to a users group on the web, you can hang out with them and most of what they're talking about will be Greek......
but if you keep plugging , you'll make small breakthrus, and some of the stuff will start to make sense, and you keep at it, and a few more of the pieces fall into place, if you stay with it, you'll be reading the posts on the user's group and actually understanding what they're talking about...
not long after that you'll wonder what you thot was so hard about it........
Unless of course, Vector Works is just a box of junk ?
*I'm in the middle of a transition from AutoCad LT to Vectorworks. It is definitely not a box of junk... but it does take some getting used to. I like AutoCad for its versatility, and I'm pretty good with it, but Vectorworks should be much easier once I get it down. I recently bought a used laptop so I can take my Vectorworks drawings to client's houses... after all what good are neat 3D drawings if the client can't see them?
*Nick.....do they have a user group or a web site, I'd like to look at Vector Works, all of tese programs are evolving so fast.... Chief will be out with VS 7.0 probably 2d qtr this year and I'm still crawling along in the dust with 6.0.I'm at least even with my drawing board productivity now , though....only every once in awhile do I get bogged down.Your Acad LT background will get you out of almost any jam, so you're in great shape...
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The Chief Architect users forum is http://www.egroups.com/list/chief-users
The Vectorworks forum is [email protected]
Jay M.
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Check out the CADD software at this site:
http://www.cadopia.com/
It's similar to AutoCAD, it works, and its free.
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I mean it is peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/minicad-l.html
Jay M
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Locally at our Community College they offer Autocad courses.. One can also buy an Autocad program for about $300.00.. I think it is an abbreviated one that allowes the student to take the course & update it later on.. I'm 60 now & going to hang it up in a coupla years. So, I don't think I will take it on.. I would however if I were younger.
L. Siders
* Jim,
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999.
*Joe:You may be interested in the organization that made this software possible. Here is their web address:http://www.opendwg.org/Jim
*Hi Bill,Janice Kent writes a complete and easy to understand aftermarket book about Vectorworks, two of them actually. They were called the Mini-Tutorial and the Mini-Manual (if I recall) back when Vectorworks was called Minicad. I'm not sure if she has updated them for Vectorworks yet.She also holds traveling seminars that are useful, if somwhat limited. How much can you really absorb in two days afterall?Check the fluff that came with the program. They usually list a bunch of third-party stuff in some pamphlet that comes with it. Also, they have a pretty good resources section at the web site.I found it took a certain perceptual leap to get fluent in it. I thought it would be simple, having done a lot of 2-D design work in programs like Quark. But I was lost until I bought the aftermarket book. That was back at version 4 though. The factory manuals are now much better than they used to be.In short, just keep plugging away, one day very soon it'll start to click, and you'll wonder why you had any problem in the first place.Steve
*I downloaded Intellicad from the site; looks really good, has a lot of really good features. Plus, it uses DWG as it's native drawing format, so should be completely compatible with Autocad, though I haven't tried it yet. Interesting; I just read an article in Cadalyst magazine about the sales of Autocad 2000 being a small fraction of what was expected; lots of good, inexpensive programs on the market now.I did have some trouble getting it though; it's a two hour download (was for me anyway),plus an hour or so for the manual, and I lost connection a couple of times. I downloaded the Getright software they recommend, which did the trick; it has a 'resume' feature in case your connection times out. I had to 'resume' four times to get the program. When the program loads up, the help files are missing; you can download the appropriate file from the knowledge base on the site. forum
*Nick, I've heard a lot of positive comments about AutoCadLT. I'm curious; Why are you switching to Vectorworks? DH
*Darrell - I really like AutoCad LT, although I'm using V 2.0, which I should probably update to whatever the newest version is. I doubt I will ever stop using it entirely. I do design/build, and I am the one doing all the work, so the advantage of Vectorworks is that I can produce a pretty picture to sell my ideas a lot faster tha I can with LT. Vectorworks has very powerful tools to draw objects with, like windows, doors, etc., and it does some very nice 3D rendering, so it really helps clients visualize their project.With LT, when I draw, I leave out almost all details that aren't directly related to the construction, because it isn't an efficient use of my time to draw them in. So with Vectorworks I spend a similar amount of time and get a lot more detail. As it is now, I have to convert to .DWG format to get drawings plotted, so I draw the pretty picture with Vectorworks, then transfer it to LT and fill in anything I didn't put in before, and get it plotted.
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I've just discovered Designer 3D by TurboCAD. It's got good tutorials and will do everything most home builders will ever want or need. Takes a lot less time to learn than any of the high priced stuff. $29.99 a CompUSA.
Check it out.
*
Joseph Fusco
View Image
"Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth."
Socrates
*Dean, I think you already have a truckload of advice. Most cutting edge companies use some form of AutoCAD or MicroStation--both somewhat high-end in terms of learning curves. If you will be porting your drawings, Visio might also be a possiblity.
*
Great info so far. I'm wondering if anyone has worked with Softplan v.10 or DataCAD? I'd like software that can produce elevations and framing plans - but of course my budget isn't at the $3000 that Softplan is asking.
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Does anybody know of a computer design and drafting program that is cheap, easy to use, will print plans that meet minimum requirements for most permit applications and does a material take off.
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Well, being a "computer type" (some may have even used the term "geek" now and again), I have a hard time justifying any software that exceeds $100. Big companies can blow that kind of money, not me. I've also spent enough on the cheaper titles (less than $30) to see just how limited (useless) they are as well. Here's my experience:
We've been renovating for the last couple of years and after a pointless excercise (and money toss) working with an design/draftsman we came to the conclusion that we know what we want and prefer to do it ourselves. I personally enjoy spending hours on end in front of the computer designing our house plans. It may not rank up there as a recreational activity for others.
If all you want to do is design a new house from scratch, then all the mid-line packages ($30 - $100) do a decent job. From this you'll get a floor plan, a 3D walk-thru and in many cases, material estimates (whether that means much I don't know). I've yet to find a package which will create cross sections, elevations plans, truss dimensions or framing plans (although none of these are un-reasonable expectations). And even though they can save the plans in different formats, there's usually enough "gotchas" that make it difficult, if not impossible, to just drop the disk off at your local blue printer for large working drawings.
If you want to incorporate an existing building with new work (renovating), things are more complicated. Some packages get a little picky about odd or out of square dimensions or wall thicknesses. Roofs are always a problem. Nearly every package attempts to create the "best fit" roof according to your specifications, and you can rarely re-create an existing roof correctly. Some packages are limited to 3 floors. That may sound like enough until you consider that a basement is usually considered a floor (there goes the attic space) and if you've got any multi-level floors or split level plans it's nice to have some flexability. And no matter how hard they try, the selection of standard doors and windows never seem to have just the right style for that custom renovation. A healthy imagination is a good thing, but not when you're trying to nail the details down with your G.C.
These are the packages I've bought and used and my VERY PERSONAL (opinions may vary) impressions of them. For instance, even the roughest 3D walkthrus have more than enough quality for me. If I've mixed up some of the brand names it's because I'm not at home and don't have the references handy. In order that I used them:
Broderbund (3D Home Architect?): This was the first, and by far the easiest package I used. Very quickly and easily lets you place walls, windows and doors with many automated features like wall joining, dimensions and roofs. Good range of floor levels (up to 10 I think) and reasonable selection of "things" like furniture and appliances. I always liked using it, but in the end all the "automated" features held it back. The automated roof was the most unsurmountable problem. Multiple roof lines were pretty much impossible and there was no way to manually tweak the roof once it was drawn. Automatic dimensions also tended to be an all or nothing process. If there were breaks between the dimension end points, you got all of them dimensioned whether you wanted them or not. Cabinets around a kitchen bay (45 angles) just didn't want to flow the way I wanted. If this package had included "advanced" tools for editing the generated features then I might have stuck with it. None the less, if I had been working to simple floor plans and straight forward roofs I probably woudn't have looked any further. Seems to me this package could create elevations views and cross sections, but these features either crashed our computer or generated badly or were not printable. (memory is failing)
IMSI (Home and Garden Planner? - early version): This is an earlier version. Not as easy to jump in and get going as the Borderbund package, mostly because there's a lot less automation but also because there are many more settings you can play with for just about everything. This is more of a drawing package with extra tools for house planning than the other way around. In the end it proved to be the winner because every detail was adjustable. It meant for a whole lot more work, but allowed me to recreate the "quirkyness" or our existing house down to the fraction of an inch. This package also has an almost unlimited number of floors and an even bigger selection of "things". The roof design section is unique in that it is more of a 3D design center. It's a painfully tedius process, but you create the roof by defining the positioning every point in the X,Y,Z axis. It literally lets you sculpture any imaginable roof line. In the end though, what really won it were the drawing tools. By ignoring walls and roofs altogether, I could take a blank plan and use shapes, lines and fill patterns on the dimensioned grid to make detail drawings. It's with these tools that I created framing plans and elevation drawings to detail the exterior finishing. I now do all my "drawing" using this package. I guess you could say it's my substitute for auto-cad. My complaints with this package are the lack of automated tools and the 3D walkthrough views. Automated tools could have "bulked in" some of the bigger pieces and given me more time to edit the details. Dimensioning is also much more manual and time consuming. I find the 3D views have an over exagerated "fish eye" effect which rarely prints cleanly. Connecting stairs and landings can be a bit messy and mutiple floor elevations (for instance a window box off a landing) are still process of twisting the software in ways it wasn't designed to go. Over all though, very flexible. If you could combine the best of IMSI and Broderbund the results would be mouth watering.
IMSI (Home and Garden Planner? - latest version): Just picked this up before Christmas and haven't used it enough to be fully up to speed on the pros and cons. What I do know is that inspite of what the package and documentation say, this new version does NOT load in previous version plans. A rather serious false claim in my opinion, but I'll probably stick with this version and transfer my old plans by hand none the less. The new version has much better 3D rendering and you can pick and choose surface textures to put on the walls (like brick, siding, wall paper, etc). I thought this would be a useful thing, but mostly it's just more eye candy. The new version does have a completely new roof generator. It appears to replace the older 3D point editor with a roof designer similar to Broderbund. If they've eliminated the detail editing in the process, then the lastest version is going to be a step back in that respect.
Home Planner Plus (?): This is another package I picked up before Xmas. It's claim to fame is the ability to turn your plans into a paper cutout model so you can build your house plan and see how it looks on the board. This is also the reason I bought it. As a design tool, it has all the basic features (including the annoying automated roof tools). It also goes a few places that the other packages don't. You can specify the stud spacing in walls (16, 24 or what ever you like), in addition to the usual features. It has a unique "frame" view, which shows your house in the framing state. Studs, headers and all. Looks really funky, but I don't know how useful this is. This program has the fastest, smoothest, easiest to move 3D I've used yet and the surface texture selections are impressive. It has the basic tools, but doesn't really stand out as a "full featured" package. Again I find myself having to fake out that silly roof generator, and most telling of all is a 3 floor limit. It will take alot of fiddling, but I am looking forward to printing out a model of our house some day. Hope it doesn't prove to be easier to mechanicaly draw each wall and build the model from scratch.
I've made very little use of any of the landscaping tools in any package.
None of what I've used has everything I'd like. What I really miss having is a cross section editor and elevation plan editor. Our city permit department requires floor plans (which all the packages can create), elevation plans (an exterior drawing of the building), cross sections (beam sizing and such) and, if required, truss plans (which the truss manufacture can supply, as long as you have the cross sections). My ideal home design would let me edit each wall as seen side on, specify stud spacing openings and headers as well as free style exterior features. It would generate cross sections where ever I want and framing plans of the walls I specify. It would also let me flag plan sections as "existing" and "new" to separate the two. I rarely (well more like never) use the materials planning. If there was more flexibilty in defining custom windows and doors then partial material lists might be handy. All I really neeed are wall lengths and wall areas to plan.
That's my 2 cents worth. Didn't intend to get so lengthy, I appogize in advance!