I’m installing an 8 ft copper ground (1/2 dia) and I have a sledge hammer available to use to drive it in the ground.
Is this the proper way to drive it into the ground or is there some kind of special tool, such as a fence post driver, which is used to hammer it down ?
Thanks for any suggestions.
^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
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Replies
If it isn't rocky, just dig a shallow hole and fill with water, then keep jigging the rod up and down, adding water as needed. It'll drill right in.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
>>If it isn't rocky, just dig a shallow hole and fill with water, then keep jigging the rod up and down, adding water as needed. It'll drill right in.I have read that this is not a good method for sinking ground rods, although I don't remember the source.Most ground rods are sunk in the overdig area, and if it's been backfilled with gravel, this technique probably won't work well.
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
If the rod is sunk in gravel it won't work as designed, so that is a moot point ,no?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
"If the rod is sunk in gravel it won't work as designed, so that is a moot point ,no"Not exactly.unless it is pure gravel and for a signficant distance all around and ground is bone dry you will have some protection..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
>>If the rod is sunk in gravel it won't work as designed, so that is a moot point ,no?Well, I've asked several electricians who seem to prefer to not notice the question <G>I suppose that for a house on a slab or crawl ....
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
The house was built in 1957 and I was going to measure out about a foot (to clear the foundation) and then dry to sink it.I'm getting ready to put the house on the market.I'm guessing the house will undergo a home inspection sometime in the immediate future and I'm just trying to get it ready.If I don't have a ground rod I would think an inspector would write this up as defective and needing a ground rod.The house has a new electric panel.^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
You may be able to lay it in a trench.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
"You may be able to lay it in a trench."Only if you hit rock.then you are to try it at an angle.If none of the above you can put in a trench..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Last year my buddy Dale got his shop wired and just layed the rod in the trench, they had no problem with that, actually it was Poco's suggestion.
So, my take is, that it either varies from region to region, or our Poco , D.G.A.S.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Soil conditions are the controlling factor in grounding configurations. Specifically, what the annual maximum resistance at that location is.SamT
Makes sense. I knew there was more to it than "Just lay it in that there trench, but leave 6" sticking up about here"Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
I put two rod on my house and the electrical inspector wrote me up..Haga su trabajo de fricken
Prolly cause ya put em ON the house, and they wanted them in the ground?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
I'd go out 18 inches at least.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
You can lay it horizontal if the trench is 18" deep, but one should be aware of the backfill medium, there is a significant difference between bowling balls and wet sand.
I'm on a project where there are hundreds of 3/4" x 10' copper ground rods, most were driven with a hilti tool and ground rod adaptor, some with an air hammer, a few pushed with a backhoe bucket, and a couple that only went so far and bent over and buried 18" deep. Of course a sledge and 6' ladder will work too.
Wow!
What type of project needs hundreds of ground rods?
This is a 227,00 sq.ft data processing center. The total building cost is 100-250 million dollars. This is an extremely energy dense project requiring 40 million watts of electricity. Inside the building are 25 medium voltage [13000 volt] substations backing up the data storage equipment and cooling needs. The ground rods make up only part of a very complex ground grid and lightning protcetion system, just the amount of large bare copper is mindboggling. Thanks for asking.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/307370_datacenters14.html
WOW
Wow you better hope the meth-heads don't figure this out. They'll yank those ground rods out somehow and sell them all for scrap!! In my old hood they would somehow hook chains to them and yank em out with their cars.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Which is sort of funny as they are just copper coatedRebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
hopefully some resi electrician will chime in soon ,since I only work in heavy industrial but you have to drive TWO rods if you want to be in compliance.you'll probably hurt yourself trying to use just a sledgehammer
go to a tool rental and get a big Hilti or Bosch rotohammer with a ground rod adapter. should only take you about ten minutes that wayor.
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., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
"The house has a new electric panel."Was it required when the panel was replaced?BTW you need TWO ground rod unless you want to test there resistance and it is less than 25 ohms. Takes specialized proceedures/equipment.The 2nd has to be 6 or more ft away.And connected to the cold water line if it is at least 10 long and metallic underground.If it does not meet that requirement, but still metallic inside then it needs to be bonded..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
If you end up putting the rod in by pounding on it with a sledge put the ground rod clamp on first....you may not be able to later after the top mushrooms and it's 8 feet in the ground..... charlie -- "Count your blessings....it could always be worse!"
And of course one should get about 8-12" of 1/2-3/4" iron pipe, with a cap on one end, to place over the top while pounding.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I have one of our old ground rod drivers that that came off one of our overhead trucks. It is much as you descibed, but they added a second larger diameter pipe welded to the smaller pipe at the cap then filled with lead. The larger pipe was then capped and the cap welded on. It is like using a 10# sledg-o-matic withou any swinging. You don't know how hard it is driving until you get to the last two feet and the driver bottoms out. Then you finish with your trusty sledge-o-matic.
I also have used a homemade T post driver and the newer model post drivers sold at the big box stores. Both work equaly well with the store bought version edging out mine in the design of the handles.
I finally bought the bit for the Hliti a few years ago. The other tools got the early retirement package:)
Dave
IIRC there is also a screwin system. An exspentable screw point is put on the end of the rod.CAP discribed it.BTW, he sounds like a really bad tool happen. Really quiet, but keeps mention those real special tools. Has a tester which exercises 15 & 20 amp breakers, under KNOWN CONTROLED conditions..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Your right about sliding the acorn on before pounding insues, it's always embassing to cut of a few inches of rod to get the clamp on after driving it eight or ten feet. It's not a bad idea to keep an eye on it, in soft soil it can follow the rod down, of course this only happens on real remote jobsites when you only had exactly enough clamps.
IIRC there is also a screwin system. An exspentable screw point is put on the end of the rod.
CAP discribed it.
IIRC he has to use it with a Miwaukee hole hog drill. Of course he uses the drill for other purposes so the gound rod attachment just makes evrything easier and faster for him. I would need to buy the drill and attachment. Not cost effective for the one or two I might drive each year. I haven't seen it at any of the rental yards I go to, but it sure would be nice for those times when I have to pull one out after it is 3/4 the way in and hits a BFR.
Dave
I like to use a black deep impact socket for a cap when driving them down. Chinese-made is acceptable for this application. Still put the clamp over the rod first. Do not tape any connection or splice.
I put the ground rod in yesterday and putting water in the hole really did the trick.I pushed in by hand for about 3 feet and then put a spark plug socket on the rod and used a sledge hammer to put it the rest of the way in.I was walking through the home depot parking lot yesterday and saw a guy carrying two ground rods to his pickup and I talked with him and he just uses a sledgehammer.I noticed he had a lot of satellite TV equipment in the back of his pickup and maybe they install ground rods as part of satellite TV installation?Anyway, thanks to everyone for their help. I attempted to rent a jack hammer or rotary hammer with adapter to install but HD tool rental and another tool rental did not have this equip^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
Yeah, the water trick works like a charm sometimes.
You betcha my Sat. Internet Dish is hooked to a rod!Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
I've done a bunch of 'em that way, no sweat. You can also fashion a driver to use with a Bulldog, but I wouldn't bother for only one.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I've hammered em down. It's not too fun, but works... sometimes. Add water to make it easier.
Once I put one in in with like 5 hits. Some very soft dirt that time.
Edited 9/27/2007 4:04 pm ET by MarkH
Rotary hammer with special adapter works like a charm....even in clay.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
You'll also need 4-foot stilts.
The ground rod is in and last night I went to HD and bought the copper wire to run from the panel to the ground rod.They had two choices of bare copper wire:#4 priced at $1.27 per footor #6 priced at 83 cents per footI bought the #6 wire. I will attach one end of the wire to the ground rod and the other will be attached to the ground bar in the panel. It's a Homeline panel.Is that where the ground wire typically attaches inside the panel?^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
Yes, the ground wire attaches to the ground bus, which if this is a main panel (as opposed to a sub-panel) will also be attached to the neutral bar.However, I'm not sure that #6 is big enough. That you need to check in a code book.
Thank you for your info and yes this is the main panel.Thanks again.^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
But be sure you understand the distinction between "main panel" and "main panel". If there's a separate disconnect ahead of the panel (but in the same building) then the bonding occurs in that disconnect box, not the panel.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
If the service entrance conductors are 4/0 AL or 2/0 Cu, you need #4 AWG Cu grounding electrode conductor.
If the service entrance conductors are smaller, you are OK with #6 AWG Cu grounding electrode conductor.
2005 NEC Table 250.66
You might want to check out NEC 2005 250.66{A} be fore you tell someone that any conductor larger than #6 copper or #4 alum is needed for the sole connection to a ground rod.The code section referenced above states quite plainly that"the sole connection to the grounding electrode"{rod, pipe or plate}"shall not be required to be larger than 6 AWG copper wire or 4 AWG aluminum wire."
You're right, I'm wrong. I quoted the numbers from Table 250.66 without seeing the exception to the table that you cited (250.66(A)).
I use a 2 pound hand sledge to get the first few feet in, and then switch to the bigger hammer if necessary. I usually drive them in within a foot of the foundation - the ground there will be backfill, so you don't run the risk of hitting a layer of rock. If you should happen to get a few days of rain, make that the first thing you do when the rain stops.
Depending on where you are, you may need a longer rod, or multiple rods. The goal is to have the grounding system have minimum resistance and maximum current dispersing ability. There may be specs for this in your local building code.
In my area, an 8 ft rod goes about 6 ft into the saturated soil, but in desert country, a single standard ground rod may be ineffective.
The NEC says that unless you test the resistance of a ground rod and find it is less than 25 ohms then you need to install 2 at least 6 ft apart.The test is specialized and not typically do for homes. Thus common practice is to always install 2 groudn rods..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill, I put my ground rod in at the side of my house. I wet the ground and used a sledge hammer and got the entire 8 ft into the ground. It worked great (other than standing & working in mud and then tracking mud into the house)But I was wondering something. What would I have done if there had been a sidewalk along the house?Would you cut the concrete with a saw to make a channel to place the wire and then put the ground rod beside the sidewalk? Then go back in with new concrete. Seems like an awful lot of work.^^^^^^
a Smith & Wesson beats four Aces
Or maybe take out a section of concrete and put the ground rod under it.While you do want the ground rod as close as practical to the panel I having seen anything that indicated where you can put the electrode. BUT I HAVE NOT LOOKED FOR IT.If that is the case then you could run it around the corner..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The local electrical Co-Op told me how to do it.... When I put in the workshop and a seperate meter, the rock layer out here is 6" under the topsoil, then 2' of limestone rock, then 3'-4' of sticky kleeche/clayish ending with another layer of rock that's more than 3' thick.
The Co-Op told me to drive the 1/2" grounding rod at an angle and under the shop's concrete slab. They said as long as the soil under the slab is wet, it wouldn't matter about the depth...
I'm starting another building with 100 amp service that's about 60 feet away from the shop meter. Would setting a new grounding rod the same way meet code?
Is that a good solution?
Bill
Edited 10/3/2007 12:05 pm ET by BilljustBill
The code reads that that is must be 8 ft underground. If rock is encounter you can drive it upto a 45 degree angle.If that is not possible then you put put it horizontal 30" or more deep.But the code requires a ufer if possible and if you use that you don't need anything else."(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode An electrode encased by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete, located within and near the bottom of a concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with the earth, consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of one or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 13 mm ( 1/ 2 in.) in diameter, or consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of bare copper conductor not smaller than 4 AWG. Reinforcing bars shall be permitted to be bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or other effective means."Here is what the handbook says about it;"This section was revised for the 2005 Code to clearly require the inclusion of a concrete-encased electrode, described in 250.52(A)(3), in the grounding electrode system for buildings or structures having a concrete footing or foundation with not less than 20 ft of surface area in direct contact with the earth. This requirement applies to all buildings and structures with a foundation and/or footing having 20 ft or more of 1/2 in. or greater electrically conductive reinforcing steel or 20 ft or more of bare copper not smaller than 4 AWG. However, an exception does exempt existing buildings and structures where access to the concrete-encased electrode would involve some type of demolition or similar activity that would disturb the existing construction. Because the installation of the footings and foundation is one of the first elements of a onstruction
project and in most cases has long been completed by the time the electric service is installed, this revised text necessitates an awareness and coordinated effort on the part of designers and the construction trades in making sure that the concrete-encased
electrode is incorporated into the grounding electrode system.".
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.