Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Apr 11, 2000 02:18am | #1

   *

   Bill,

   One of the first things that you might need to know is "how the other guy did it" You can find this out by using the the right mouse button you will get the box circled in read.
   

   Click on the "View Source" to reveal the source code of the page. This is what the source code of this page looks like. This is the "raw" HTML.
   

   I'm sure you realize this will take some time. . .

   
   
   View Image

   © 1999-2000

   "The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it."

   Aristotle

1. 
   Guest_ | Apr 11, 2000 02:33am | #2

   *Okay, I got it, have the time too.

1. 
   Guest_ | Apr 11, 2000 03:05am | #3

   *Bill,

   I noticed that you have a netscape e-mail address, do you also have a personal home page there. The reason for asking is in order to post pictures or graphic you need to have space on a server on the web. If you have a home page there than you have the next part covered.

   View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

1. 
   Guest_ | Apr 11, 2000 03:08am | #4

   *Yes, I have both a Yahoo home page as well as a Netscape page. While I was waiting I surfed on over to your web site and the discussion board. Very nice. Too many interesting web sites, not enough hours in the day.

1. 
   Guest_ | Apr 11, 2000 05:45am | #5

   *Bill /Joe, I'll be following this thread closely. I'm in the same boat as Bill. Self taught as far as anything computer based goes. Usually I'm very quick to pick things up, but not so much when it comes to computers. I've got to get myself more interrested in the subject. On a side note, I just sat down and learned how to work my '98 CD Estimator from Craftsman Books. Used to just use it to get ballpark prices and add things up on paper! If you learn how to make the needed changes (material prices/labor/mark-up,etc.) the thing seems to work great! Will have to do more and track against my pen and paper methods. Will post an update. Waiting for school to start....Jeff

2. 
   Guest_ | Apr 11, 2000 06:05am | #6

   *Bill/Jeff,

   Since you have a home page you will be able to "upload" files to the space on that system. Once you have done this you will be able to direct a viewers browser to display those file.

   The first step is to be able to get the files you what onto your computer and than (second step) onto the server. That's where your home page is in cyber space.

   Since I'm sure at this moment in time you guys are not planning to become Web designers I'd guess the first thing you'd like to do is get some pictures or graphics to display. Like I said before the first is to get the stuff onto your computer. There are a few ways to do this, you can use a scanner. You can have photos put on to a CD and than save them to your computer. You can use a digital camera to save photo's to your computer. Or, if you see a picture or graphic on the web you can save it to your computer to use.

   Once you have it on your computer you will need to move it to your server (second step). Your home page my provide a program to do this or you might need what is call a "File Transfer program" This is a program that uploads and downloads, depending where you sit, files between computers. The term "FTP" is an acronym for "File Transfer Protocol".

   View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

3. 
   Guest_ | Apr 11, 2000 07:45am | #7

   *Bill,I also will be following closely. I'm a computer programmer (but not a web developer per se.) I live in Philly, work in Wilmington. I'm a DIY hobbyist, which is why I'm in this discussion. But, if you have questions that necessitate hands-on demonstration/explanation, I'd be willing to help you in my free time. Click my name above to find out my contact info...Jeff,Unless you want to pay my airfare ;) I'm more than willing to help via email...Joe, I hope you're not planning on going away either. I have seen your site, and been pretty well impressed. You've actually been through this, and experience pays, right?I can't promise a lot. I guess I'd be like a framer doing plaster work... I know the basics, but it might not wind up looking as pretty as if you hired a specialist. But, I've got a few contacts that might help there, too, if you're interested.Sean aka Mr. Pita

4. 
   Guest_ | Apr 11, 2000 12:46pm | #8

   *Bill:<>Creating sites can be challanging, although there are lots of applications available to to that, including Netscape's Composer.FWIW, there's an interesting discussion in the WordPerfect Universe forum on a couple of applications for this. Go to http://wpwin.com, then the Usere To User Forum, hen the Chit Chat section, and check out the discussion "Dreamweaver or FrontPage 2000?"I can't post a direct link because my link has embedded cookies.One thing to beware of: using Microsoft products to produce web pages usually includes proprietory MS codes, and you may lose people who use other, non-MS browsers.Bob

5. 
   Guest_ | Apr 11, 2000 08:46pm | #9

   *Bill,

   Right about this point you should begin to see that its really just about "tools". Just like you need them to build in the real world you will need them to "build' in cyber space. Also, just like in the real world some tools are better then others. . . and some people also use their tools better then others.

   One tool I think that anyone who is interested in this stuff is going to need is an FTP. You can get a real nice one at CuteFTP.com it comes with a decent HTML editor all for about $40.00 bucks. I think that this is the minimum investment anyone would need to make. You can even evaluate the program for thirty days before you buy.

   If I were you I would download it and check it out. I'll help you set it up to access your site at yahoo and then we can take it from there. Oh and also, you should think about downloading ICQ.

   View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

6. 
   Guest_ | Apr 12, 2000 12:57am | #10

   *Thanks for the offer M.P., but I have a source a little closer to home. I have a good friend that's been working with computers for about 20 yrs., and he's comming over for a few beers this weekend. I'm trying to get together a list of Q's for him, and also a little info so I can keep up when he explains everything at 90mph. assuming I have the slightest clue as to what the hell he's talking about! He's offered to set up a site for me, but I want to be a little more hands on for the upkeep. Let's keep this thread going. Jeff

7. 
   Guest_ | Apr 12, 2000 12:59am | #11

   *I just thought of a "PeteFest" activity. Web page design for the carpenter-minded. Jeff

8. 
   Guest_ | Apr 12, 2000 01:10am | #12

   *I'm back, I can only spend time in the evening doing this as well as, following your instructions,(must make a living) so this will probably take a period of time. So..... now I down load, will report back.

9. 
   Guest_ | Apr 12, 2000 02:35am | #13

   *Ok, I downloaded both programs. Ready.

10. 
    Guest_ | Apr 12, 2000 03:51am | #14

    *Bill,

    That's great. Did you get an ICQ number? Mine and Pete's are both posted in our headings. You can do the same if you like.

    Ok, when you open Cute32 you will see this screen. Go down to the bottom right and click onto the "NEW" button, its circled in red. This will bring you to the next screen. A new file is made in the navigator and is labeled new site. You just type over and give your site a name. I called mine Geocities but, Yahoo will work just fine. You can see this in the next screen. You should enter the same information in the FTP Host Address:You obviously enter your user name in the FTP site Uers Name:Than you enter your password in the FTP site Password: Than click connect and you should be at your root directory at Geocities. When you are connected you should get this splash screen. Let me know how you make out.

    View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

11. 
    Guest_ | Apr 13, 2000 03:09am | #15

    *I'd like to do this stuff too. I envy you guys that have the time...it's just a matter of learning the machine.....maybe when I retire.......Right now, I've got carpentry work to look after and not time to stick my head up the computer. I hope I make my points here without all the whistles and bells........there is a lot to be said for simplicity. I do enjoy the eye candy. But it don't impress my clients. They could care less about my computer skills.Ed. Williams

12. 
    Guest_ | Apr 13, 2000 05:07am | #16

    *If you just want to have some fun (who doesn't) rather than sift through pages of code (they don't call it code for nothing) start off with a graphical design program that lets you arrange the pictures and text with the mouse, then quietly generates the HTML gibberish behind the scenes. Some programs will also handle "uploading" all the files to your ISP's server, sparing you a separate FTP session. Finally, many ISP's offer simple design tools as part of their subscriber package -- e.g., Mindspring, Earthlink, etc. -- that are good enough to get a straightforward picture-album style site running.If you like what you get and want more, you may want to buy one of the more expensive graphic web page authoring programs, such as Adobe Pagemill or MS Frontpage. I haven't used either and happen to have Claris Homepage. All have the same idea: fairly simple design. The downside of these programs is that you can't get super-fine control or intelligent interactivity. That's where you may get interested in directly hacking the HTML (the "source") or more. I'm currently interested in Javascript, a scripting language that permits slightly fancier stuff, or at least I was interested during the winter when i had free time... Javascript allows you to swap images when the mouse glides over the frame, etc. -- see http://www.chalcedony.com/javascript/ Java is one step farther, a full-fledged compiled language where the code sent to your computer is digested into machine instructions from the original English (for better performance). The innovative and cool thing about Java and Javascript is that they allow the server to distribute processing to visiting computers, making them crunch the numbers themselves, rather than doing it all at the server ... in effect the server becomes more powerful as more clients connect to it. But i digress...If you read nothing else in this post, for freeware, shareware, and demos of commercial software, I highly recommend you visit http://download.cnet.com/downloads/, click on your OS type (PC, Mac, Linux...), then select "Development Tools"; and finally poke around "Web Authoring" and "Editors." The editor's picks and popular downloads tend to be quite decent programs. Plus there's a lot of other neat stuff (games) in the archive.No magic required. You should be able to get a working albeit primitive website running in an hour or two. The nice commercial sites you've seen involve a whole lot more work and expertise. Even though I could write such a site myself, I'd still tend to want to hire it out or, most likely, buy the "carcass" of a well-written site and customize it with my own content. There are many business-oriented solutions like this out there. You don't, for example, have to figure out how to create a "shopping cart" or process credit card #'s.

13. 
    Guest_ | Apr 13, 2000 05:30am | #17

    *Ed. - Even if I took the time, this stuff is WAY over my head. We're all different. I'd sure like to be able to do that stuff too, but all I get is a headache from tryin'. As for your posts, they have always been clear as a bell to me.

14. 
    Guest_ | Apr 13, 2000 03:45pm | #18

    *Odd timing -- this morning I got an ad from Offic Depot for one of the "business websites in a box" I mentioned yesterday -- http://www.officedepot.com/promo/redir.asp?AdID=3556. I doubt it is particularly sophisticated, but it may be fine for a lot of people to catalog some of their work online.For Mac people, Fetch from dartmouth.edu is the classic FTP client, and it is FREE. Also, Quicknailer, $17, is a very good image organizer that will spew out HTML pages for you with thumbnails of images, all at a click.Start simple. The classic first program people used to write would just print "Hello, world" on the screen (esp. when they'd just finished making their own computer from a kit). The second program was probably a loop that would print the numbers from 1 to 100. Let's see, 20 years ago in BASIC, that would have been:>for i = 1 to 100; print i; next ior in C (why "C"? -- it was the successor to "B"):>for(i=1;i<=100;i++){ printf("%dt",i) }I'll admit I had to check the syntax for this one ... it has been 8 years since I last coded in C, or coded at all really.Really fun stuff, or so I've thought off and on since I was 10. I'm starting to reminisce....

15. 
    Guest_ | Apr 13, 2000 09:42pm | #19

    *

    Whatever your position on computers is, you should try and not miss the point. This is just simply one more form of communication. Just like writing, sign language and smoke signals. As you should have guessed by now. . . some are better than others.

    Since I'm one who's not the best (by far) at the written word, I'll take anything that can help make my point. The irony here being that with all this technology some people are just stone dumb.

    Its hard to fathom that with all the experience here at using different tools that some of you just don't see the machine as another tool, that's all it really is. Its not hard to learn and its great fun too. Try it. . .you'll like it!

    View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

16. 
    Guest_ | Apr 14, 2000 04:52am | #20

    *Ed, I had to think for a moment as to how to respond to your comments. I don't have a lot of time on my hands either. As you may notice on the time, many of my posts are in the late evening hours. I try to find time to continue to learn more things that can make me and my business more valuable. I don't particularly like stay up late, but this seems to me to be the only time in my busy day to be able to learn something new, interact with other builders, expose myself to new information and ways of doing things. You and I are more similar than not. We both run companies in large metro areas, employ several people on multiple jobs, do high quality work, and take our respective businesses quite seriously. Through the magic of the internet we have now met and are both sharing and receiving information that has the power to help our businesses, from each other as well as our peers hear at breaktime. I know I gain from the association. And yet who 10 years ago would have been able to convince you of its value, personally or professionally? No, your customers may not presently value your computer skills, but sometime down the road they may value the benifits that you derive from it. I find it's better to start to learn and try and stay ahead of the learning curve than to forever play catch-up.The world, and our businesses, are starting to go 100 miles an hour. It never slows down. We now not only need carpentry tools to stay in business, but also pagers, cell phones, fax machines, laptops, copiers, credit cards, two-way radios, voice mail, e-mail, miltiple phone lines, and the list goes on. When I got into construction 22 years ago many of these did'nt exist. So how can you believe more computer skills may have no value? If we both spend 30 mins. a day trying, we can pick it up in less than a year. How about it? And yes being brief has its benefits, sorry for the long post. Regards, Bill

17. 
    Guest_ | Apr 14, 2000 05:00am | #21

    *Joe, its been a little busy here the last couple evenings so I'm behind on the tutoral a bit. Give me until Friday night to experiment with the info you already shared then I will go for more. I believe I speak for more than myself when I say that I appreciate the time you're taking to walk me through this. Bill

18. 
    Guest_ | Apr 14, 2000 07:09am | #22

    *OK, I have two questions. Joe - you said we'd need a home page. How do we know if we have one or not?The other thing I'm wondering is about what Bob Walker said about if you build your page on MicroSoft, some folks won't have access to it. Is there another system that you could use, that MicroSoft users could get at as easily as the other folks? Or do you have to choose who can, and can't get access?

19. 
    Guest_ | Apr 14, 2000 12:41pm | #23

    *Jim,

    You really just need a place to "store" your files. Some call it a "home page" others call it a "site", call it what you'd like it doesn't matter. You might be allotted space from the company you use as your ISP, check with them.

    You can go to many sites that will provide you with a home page. Netscape & Yahoo offer a free page but, there are many others.

    Using MS FrontPage is not going to limit anyone from seeing your pages. FrontPage and IE have some extended features over standard HTML that can be programmed into the page. Using them will cause other browsers like NS not to execute that code. NS also has features that IE will not execute. I won't let this stop anyone from using MS FrontPage or FrontPage Express.

    As far as other programs to use. . . You can use Composer which is included with NS. FrontPage Express which is included with Windows 95/98. Other programmers include, Netobjects, Dreamweaver and Homesite. I'd only recommend these if you are serious about web design or just what to have the best that is available, kinda like buying tools. . . .

    View Image © 1999-2000"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle

20. 
    Guest_ | Apr 16, 2000 05:24am | #24

    *Well, Jim, Ed, and the others quietly watching,I've been away from the board a few days. As a computer professional, I more than understand some of the qualms some of you have in dealing with the newer technology. I see the same fears and hear the same complaints from my users (customers) all the time. The task of creating a website can be tricky, but is not impossible.However, some of you may wish to approach the task just as if you were a DIY looking at a difficult home improvement. Know your limitations, and call in a specialist if/as needed. Adding a website to your business IS an improvement. Look at it the same as a homeowner - say adding an addition. The homeowner can do it themselves, and it can add value to the house. But, if they aren't comfortable enough, aren't knowledgeable enough, the results can actually detract from the property. A website can give your customers added insight towards your business. But done poorly, it will reflect badly on your workmanship - even though they're not hiring you to work on their computer.I assume all of you have trucks with your name, number, etc. painted on the side, or perhaps a sign outside your place of business. I further assume you have hired out that sign painting, rather than doing it yourself. If a customer saw you pull up in a beat to hell truck with half your name missing from the side, from age or neglect, they may think twice. You may be the best contractor in the world, but that first impression is that you're shoddy. A website is a new type of first impression, and done correctly, you look great, done poorly, and you don't.Please forgive me for ranting. The technology itself is not that hard, but that is not the same as saying anyone can do it. Just about anyone can hold a circular saw and squeeze the trigger, or swing a hammer, but that does not mean that they are a skilled carpenter. Like I said, know your limitations. You shouldn't have too much trouble finding a computer guy (or girl) who specializes in small businesses.I don't mean to flat out say don't do it yourself. You can by all means give it a shot, and if you don't like the way it turns out, you can erase and start over. One of the reasons I prefer working with computers - your mistakes only 'waste' time, not materials. But don't look at mistakes as waste - LEARN, and at least try to have some fun.Good luck, and if you do have questions, I'm more than happy to answer questions. But, as you see I'm a little long winded, so you may want to move those questions to emailing me directly. Contrary to this post, I don't want to tie up the whole board. I'm more likely to respond quicker to email, too.Sean

21. 
    Guest_ | Apr 16, 2000 05:32am | #25

    *Well, Jim, Ed, and the others quietly watching,I've been away from the board a few days. As a computer professional, I more than understand some of the qualms some of you have in dealing with the newer technology. I see the same fears and hear the same complaints from my users (customers) all the time. The task of creating a website can be tricky, but is not impossible.However, some of you may wish to approach the task just as if you were a DIY looking at a difficult home improvement. Know your limitations, and call in a specialist if/as needed. Adding a website to your business IS an improvement. Look at it the same as a homeowner - say adding an addition. The homeowner can do it themselves, and it can add value to the house. But, if they aren't comfortable enough, aren't knowledgeable enough, the results can actually detract from the property. A website can give your customers added insight towards your business. But done poorly, it will reflect badly on your workmanship - even though they're not hiring you to work on their computer.I assume all of you have trucks with your name, number, etc. painted on the side, or perhaps a sign outside your place of business. I further assume you have hired out that sign painting, rather than doing it yourself. If a customer saw you pull up in a beat to hell truck with half your name missing from the side, from age or neglect, they may think twice. You may be the best contractor in the world, but that first impression is that you're shoddy. A website is a new type of first impression, and done correctly, you look great, done poorly, and you don't.Please forgive me for ranting. The technology itself is not that hard, but that is not the same as saying anyone can do it. Just about anyone can hold a circular saw and squeeze the trigger, or swing a hammer, but that does not mean that they are a skilled carpenter. Like I said, know your limitations. You shouldn't have too much trouble finding a computer guy (or girl) who specializes in small businesses.Good luck, and if you do have questions, I'm more than happy to answer questions. But, as you see I'm a little long winded, so you may want to move those questions to emailing me directly. Contrary to this post, I don't want to tie up the whole board.Sean

22. 
    Guest_ | Apr 16, 2000 04:30pm | #26

    *I think that anyone here can obviously use a computer. I'm assuming we're all pretty good even typing a letter in our word processors.Using the software (front page, netscape composer, etc.) to make a web site is just like using a word processor. You type it in the way you want it to look and let the computer worry about writing the HTML.The only tricky part is uploading it to the internet and that's not much different than saving to disk. Thankfully, this computer stuff is starting to get easy enough for even us to do it.The only part that might be tricky, is making it look pretty. That's why most web designers are art guys, not computer guys.

23. 
    Guest_ | Apr 16, 2000 08:18pm | #27

    *GREAT thread; thanks to all the mentors for using little words and pictures. I'm going to hire it out probably (overloaded with other things to learn), but it's great to have a better understanding of what's involved.

24. 
    Guest_ | Apr 17, 2000 02:35am | #28

    *For those of you looking to knock some of the mystique out of HTML, try this site. I've linked to it before on this forum. It's an above-average primer to get you started, and has links galore should you choose to pursue the matter.

25. 
    Guest_ | Apr 17, 2000 11:40am | #29

    *"A man has to know his limitations." Dirty Harry?There -are- a lot of ug-ly sites out there. And the standards are rising.

26. 
    Guest_ | Apr 19, 2000 06:14am | #30

    *You feel lucky, punk? Well? Do ya? LOL

27. 
    Guest_ | Apr 19, 2000 09:07am | #31

    *"Who's gonna stop me?!? YOU?""Me, Smith, & Wesson."