Please explain 4-3/16″ depth window
DesignBuild
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I just received my very expensive Pella Architect series window — the depth from the inside of the brick molding is 4-3/16″, its going into a 2×4 wall with 3/4″ sheating so this of course leaves me just flush with the inside edge of the 2×4 stud. I will need to pack out the entire window just to get flush with the face of the sheetrock.
Can someone explain what the point of this window depth is? Naturally I was anticipating after spending all of that money that I wouldn’t have a thing to do once I framed the opening and put the window in – and now I have to trim the hole thing out just to get flush with the drywall. I just can’t for the life of me make sense of that window depth. Any thoughts?
thanks,
Sean
Replies
Maybe they left out the "1" in 13/16"?
Forrest - no help
Can't say I know why the depth is 4-3/16" ; doesn't make any sense to me.
Having said that, I don't think the standard 4-9/16" would have been any better. I would actually rather apply a 1/2 , or 9/16 extention jamb than a 1/4" or 5/16" one. Typical window is set up for 1/2" sheathing (actual 7/16 strong) so the 3/4 sheathing would push it out furthur than standard anyway. I've been saying for years that they should be more like 4-5/8 or 3/4 instead; I always seem to be beating the plaster in around the windows, never seen one where the window stuck in too far. Heard this complaint from quite a few trim carps too....
Bing
"Can't say I know why the depth is 4-3/16" "It's for when you use the 2 15/16" wide studs! Don't you know that?!I swear, some people....
HAH! It was a trick! I knew the answer all along. It's for the 3/16 foam sheathing
:)
Bing
What Bing said...
Also though, when ordeing upper end windows you normally specify the size of the jamb extensions. I've never used Pellas though. 4 & 3/16ths sounds totally wierd though. 3/4" sheathing isn't exactly standard either. Like bing said - it will be better to pack out 1/2 or 5/8" than a quarter.
ok good, at least I'm not the only one that thinks that dimension does not make sense. This is a window retrofit so the sheathing is actually the original 3/4" T&G boards I cut an opening into. Although I agree its easier to pack out 1/2" then it is 1/4" I guess I feel like I shouldn't have to pack out anything -- I don't have to when I order pre-hung doors.I noticed on the Andersen windows you can order the extension jambs as an option and the sill and head are dadoed for them already - a nice touch in my book. I must say I'm rather dissapointed with these Pella's -- the craftsmanship could be better (sloppy caulking)-- and there is so much trim and framing on these things they look more like doors then windows - I'd say you see an almost 50% wood to glass ratio when you look at them.
The reason that they are only 4 3/16" is so that a jamb extension can be applied for a custom fit. They do this because there is never one size fits all size because every wall is different.
And yes, they do offer jamb extensions just like Andersen does.
All this information is in the detailed product description.
Welcome to the wonderful world of marketing. Pella and Anderson are both great nationwide markerters. They have created the illusion that they build better windows. Anderson probably makes more money off their exentsions jambs than they do their windows. Pella is just a lousy window too and details like nailing fins that actually work and proper sized jambs don't need to be attended too because they are selling on name, not quality. I think Anderson used to wrap 1/2" plywood for their jambs and sold their products as high end. To me it was a joke. They were flimsy, hard to get set right and their extension jambs were no fun. Shoulda bought from a local window builder. They won't be any better but they are half the price. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Not sure if Jim's referring to diff. windows by a local builder or the same.If the same, at least around here, you'll pay TWICE what you can Anderson for at the HD.I was forced to do that once only because I couldn't wait the "estimated" 6-8 weeks for HD to get the joined units.The price from the "local" guy was $1480.00 EACH.
The price from the HD (had I been able to possibly wait that long): $1383.00 TOTAL (for both joined sets).
if they were going into a bricked opening the depth of the window wouldn't matter as much because you could push it in or out but it seems as if you have more of a stucco type opening whereby the window is butted up to the sheeting.
I just saw the detailed product description were they mention the factory applied extension jambs -- just wish the rep that took my order would have mentioned it, seems like an important detail.
When you order windows you have to specify the jamb depth. Typical for me is 6-9/16", which fits in a 2x6 wall with 1/2" sheathing and 1/2" rock. Your salesman did you no favor by sending you that size without asking you. I have order sheets from my supplier right here and jamb dimension is a blank I have to fill in.
Your salesman did you no favor by sending you that size without asking you.
I think you found the real problem.
Really good sales reps will have a standard list of information they need to get the order right. Not just for windows, but framing packages, trusses, and a hundred other items that go into a building. I invariably forget something on some orders. My lumber yard rep seems to catch most of the things that I miss. Between the two of us we are about 95 to 98% correct on my orders. as long as that 5% missed part doesn't cost me 25% more labor I'm alright with the way we work together. It is the main reason I request the same guy when I place any order, big or small.
Dave
I am VERY surprised to hear that your Pella rep completely ignored the issue of jamb depth in taking your order.
In most places, their Architect series line is handled exclusively by dealers operating stores flying the Pella name. That was my experience in the midwest, upper midwest, and now the northeast. The sales reps I have been in contact with are prepared to offer jamb depths in the widest range of sizes of any window company I know.
Was this window order done through a Pella store?
yes, I ordered this directly from a Pella store here in Jersey. The extent of the discussion with the rep was him asking me what size wall this was being installed in, and I replied 2x4 construction. I will share some of the blame for not thinking through exactly what that depth dimension was going to give me -- I was more focused on being exact on the width and height. Lesson learned I guess.
Edited 12/24/2007 4:56 pm ET by DesignBuild
That window can be ordered with the size jamb you need.
So what size did you order?
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"So what size did you order?"the wrong size -- I'm not disputing that and I know the window is mine now, I'm just a little ticked that when I placed the order there was no mention of extension jambs.lesson learned.
That was an incompetent sales rep.
I hadn't read all the other when I replied.If you make formal complaint to Pella immediately you might get some small satisfaction from them. I don't know if they still manage cust satisfaction the same now, but 6-7 yerars ago, everybodies bonus package was tied to having 100% customer satisfaction. One complaint would screw up their pay for a whole quarter. But after you fill out the satisfaction survey positively, they could care less about you or the product.
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I had a similar experience with Pella, except that I HAD specified the jamb thickness/width.
The five windows joined together came without the ext jambs applied.
So here's what they did: They sent ext jambs and had me apply them. Holes predrilled since they were over 2 inches wide. NO screws sent, had to use my own. The extensions were not very good either. Fortunately, the homeowner was painting the window.
So, you may wonder, what did they do for me? They gave me a credit for the amount that I had paid for them to be applied.
Now, do you think it took me the few minutes that it would have taken them to apply them at the factory? Of course not. At least I had enough built into the project to cover it.
Also, I had ordered the aluminum trim pieces for the outside of the window. Had even asked the salesperson if I could bend them with my siding brake. She said yes.
Well, you guessed it. The aluminum was to thick to bend. I had to drive about 30 miles to a fabricator that would bend them for me. They did a nice job for me at a reasonable price. But, it cost me in the time and money I had to spend to get it done.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
I'm not crazy about Pella. Have had a few bad experiences with the product
Look at the upside, you won't make this mistake again, and you're now available to make a completely new one ;)
my Dad would call the small amount needed to make up the right sized extentions a "tuition payment" ...
if U learn from your ... or others ... mistakes ...
it's not good money after bad.
just a life lesson tuition payment.
the OP got a 2'fer ... one ... sizing and ordering windows ...
and two ... double check the sales guy.
might add three ... research and know yer product better than the supposed "expert" at the sales desk.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
funny -- the whole reason I went to an "official" Pella store was to avoid this type of thing. I absolutely would have expected this oversight if I ordered the window from a big box. Oh well, as I stated before - lesson learned, or if you prefer "tuition paid". Probably will go to a different school - I mean manufacturer - next time.
yup.
sometimes ya just can't win.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I don't see it as a manufacturer problem.
Seems to me they delivered just what you ordered.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I'll disagree.
If any other maker you'd be right, but a large part of Pella's claim to fame is that they eliminate the middle man and thed problems that come from that syustem.So by taing control of thewhole entiore process, they also take total responsibility to get it right.But this is far from uncommon with them
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yeah ... if U go to a speciality store ...
U kinda expect the sales guy to bring up little details like how U actually finish the window.
missing mentioning extension jamb is one thing ...
missing the oportunity to sell it is the suprise to me here!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"missing the oportunity to sell it is the suprise to me here!"very funny Jeff - very true also.JHole -- I do take most if not all of the responsibility on this one as I mentioned in several earlier posts in the thread, ultimately its up to me to check and re-check the order -- and it does clearly say 4-3/16" on my order. Generally speaking I was not thrilled with some of the craftsmanship, especially considering this is one of their higher end units and I paid a pretty penny for it - and its safe to say I was not thrilled with the customer service. I went directly to the manufacturer not because I was looking for a deal, but because I wanted a great product AND more importantly I wanted great service - and I was willing to pay for it. At the end of the day I feel like I didn't get either. I will look on the bright side though, I will never make that mistake again and hopefully all of you that have been kind enough to lend your thoughts to this thread will also walk away a bit wiser too. Thanks,
Sean
" I'll disagree. "
Them's some tall words around these parts mister. -;)
Still seems to me that what he said he wanted - he got. They did take care of the whole package of what he wanted.
If my Pella rep doesn't ask me " 4 and 9" - I tell him that.
Hell I can think of times where I got back a pre-order quote that was spec'ed 4& 9 and i had to call and back out the extensions because it was remod and I was gonna have to fab them anyway.
In twenty plus years every time I make a Pella order, I get what I asked for.
But, Times they are a' changin'.
I just don't think it's fair to diss a manufacturer because they gave you what you asked for. I make my money by knowing what to asks for and telling people what I want.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
"I make my money by knowing what to asks for and telling people what I want."OK, So let's say you go to a car dealership to order a custom car the way you want it.The dealer does not tell you you have an option of engine size or wheels. You get the colour down 'cause that is obvious. You do find out yourself about engine options. But the wheel options is some sort of deep dark secret and you find out later that what they sent looks terrible by comparison to the one sitting next to it in the lot.Did the dealer do his job?I've had several experiences with Pella's rep making mistakes on the order and/or not even telling me I had certain options.They are just order takers, but they portray themselves as knowing all there is to know about their product. That is deception.Macdonalds does a better job of training their order takers to upsell than Pella does training theirs to sell period. That is incompetence.And it all goes back to the company that takes full responsibility for controlling the process when the cut out the middleman retailer.
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My post was not meant to be contencious.
It kind of sounds like a regional thing, maybe. ( Cal's later post kinda sums up our local situ).
On your analagy;
I'll accept it. (I'm not the type to sit here and question your question)
In the case of the car thing. I know my level of past experience in ordering new cars (low). Right off the bat my first job is to educate myself on what I want in every available, or non-factory available, feature. If I can't find something, or don't understand something - I ask. If I don't get a satisfactory answer, I ask someone else, or dig deeper. Until I am completely satisfied with what I want to show up the day of delivery. At that point I TELL someone what I want. When it shows up If it isn't what I told them then it's their baby. If it is what I told them, but I missed some detail, then it's my baby.
If, through this process I actually do miss something, in the end I usually chalk it up to being a newby who just paid a tuition.
I have been tuned in to the "deep darks" being the place to look first. There is usually a reason why they are deep and dark.
I actually feel that in your scensrio the MANUFACTURER did his job.
The salesman may not have, or may have done a minimal, or pi$$ poor job. I find that to be the norm anymore. I have become jaded and expect to do alot of self education in most situations lately.
But the manufacturer did what they were supposed to do.
In the OP's situation, I would not buy from that rep again, but I wouldn't throw Pella Corporation under the bus because of Billy Salesguy wearing a Pella nametag.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I'm not meaning to be contentious either, just explaining my position.From what you said here, I see that you are differentiating between the manufacturer and the sales team which is more true with cars and with most windows, but my point is that with Pella, they take hold of the whole thing, so they should bear more responsibility.
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Pella doesn't take hold of the whole thing. They just happen to sell via what's called one-step distribution. All the dealers I ever knew were independents.
In some places, Marvin does the same.
That said, most all the majors have gone to order entry package software that uses what is called rules based product configuration.
Using it, one starts at the top of a product "tree," and then keep specifying options and variants and size info, until the configurator has packaged a complete order.
The "rules" parts are all in the package, and using a car for a product example, only allow the choice of transmissions that go with the engine already selected.
Before all this stuff, a salesman had to have a whole lotta product knowledge in order to properly write an order for a complex product such as a window, or a CNC cabinet parts cutting machine.
Now, all it takes is a dummy, to press buttons on the touch screen.
Would you like to supersize your order, sir?
But that said, the Pella guy would have had to answer the q when entering the order, the one that asked, "jamb extensions, Y or N?"
He must have made a unilateral decision. Probably worked a late shift at Mickey D's the night before.
Exactly! I wonder how long that has been in use.There ARE still computer glitches too! On my last big order, the shipping tags pasted on the units - two of them had somebody elses name on them, but my order number. They were the right units and I called the company to check and see if somebody else on the same truck run had similar or something. They just said it must have been a computer glitch.somebody has to enter info in and read it out. That is where the dummies come in.BTW, the Pella reps/sales agents here tell me they work for Pella.
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Around me Pella Stores are independently owned and not part of Pella Corporate. Maybe it's just been my experience with the local store and I'm sure our proximity to Iowa helps. We have always had a good relationship and good service. The windows to me seem to be on par with with the complementary Anderson lines in my experience. When we have had a warranty issue or a problem with an order it has always been remedied quickly and professionally.
Pella has a huge name in my market and the company I work for has used them almost exclusively for the last 25 years. We've also started using Hurd windows lately, on two recent installs, their customer service blew while the windows material quality itself was superb.
I have a hard time relating to the problems you've had with Pella though I have also not been in this business nearly as long as you.
In order to get Marvin windows I need to go 30 miles away and do not have any sort of relationship or support with a vender. My few experience with Marvin have been positive though.
Pella has started selling pre-cut, one piece Azek exterior trim, no idea on the cost or experience though I plan to try it out at some point, Probably give it a go on the next single window replacement we do.
In past window dioscussions we have all ended up agreeing that region of the country and local follow up service is what makes or breaks that relationship.I have not done it yet, but have been told that I can get almost any window premade with Azek or Azek-like ext casings now, or can order them framed so all we have to do is plunk, caulk and nail
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The plunk, nail, and caulk sounds like a good deal.
Not just the ease of installation but having a pne piece exterior casing is going to last longer and be less likely to allow water in a multi-piece. I haven't priced them yet though.
No. My point is that I don't let them take hold of anything.
I am the person with the money, the overall responsibilty, my reputation, my experience, my a$$ and labor to install it, my time schedule wich has to be met, and my customer who expects ME to work in there best interest, among alot of other factors.
I don't take any of this lightly, and therefore don't expect Billy Salesboy to give a damn about me or my customer.
That is my job as a full service remodeling contractor. I make sh!t work - in the worst of conditions - at no pain to my clients.
Monkey is on my back every day, I don't have time to blame someone else for what they can't accomplish.
This subject goes way further than just a window, and I don't mean to hijack. But this thread hit on a sore spot with me from my experiences lately on a FULL CUSTOM bathroom that I am putting together for a customer. I have found, fanagled, fabbed, and pulled out of my a$$ answers that should have been obvious to my suppliers. I have found answers in their own line of product, that they sell for a profit, and didn't even offer to me. I have had to send them a link to their own product line.
I am not talking about "big boxes". The "Kohler Bath House" here in our locale couldn't come up with a 9" bath spout. So she sent back a link to a generic spout which wouldn't work in a rental. After educating myself on their product line, I found the perfect substitute 1 page away from my initial inquiry.
My customer is pleased beyond words.
Back to the point - Know what you want. Get what you want.
Don't know what you want. You get what you get.
If your goal is to get what works - then know what will work.
If you don't know what will work, learn.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
"Still seems to me that what he said he wanted - he got. They did take care of the whole package of what he wanted."He didn't get what he wanted. That's obvious because he in here asking for something different and he's now another officially bad referral for the window company.Jeff is right, you go to a specialty store and expect the right questions to be asked. That's the sales rep's job: ask questions....know the clients needs better than they know them. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I quit relying on other people to look out for my best interest in jr. high.
Since then I have taken care of myself very well, thank you.
If I want to go buy what I want, I go buy what I want.
I don't go buy what someone sells me and then blame them that I didn't get what I wanted.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
and I'll disagree ;)
We order a lot of Pella windows every year, and have very few problems. The local store has a checklist I have to go through and sign off before they will place the order, sounds like this particular store would benefit from the same.
Anyway, in my opinion it's who ever is ordering the material who is ultimately and finally responsible for what's ordered. I don't subscribe to the idea that I can blame someone else for my own over-sight. On every Pella order I've placed in their quote is a section detailing the jamb depth.
I do think the salesman would be a better salesman if he would have asked about the wall section, however IMO it's not his ultimate responsibility.
I agree that the customer has to check the order, but the order they show me is not a clear checklist. =It has a lot of code abbreviations that I have learned to ask, "What does this mean."
or "Where is such and such included?"One of my first experiences with them was on a job where an archy had speced the Pella's. This was a top of the line window for historic matching. I started right out with the rep telling him that we need this and that with certain casing and thick sills etc.When I checked the order, I was looking at the number of windows, size of window and jamb thickness, and finish. I didn't know what to look for to see that the thick historic sills were on it and didn't think to. I mean, I had TOLD him what I wanted, right?So the windows come in with no sill extensions at all. I call to complain and his answer? "Oh if you want that on your windows you have to order them that way"
Like as tho *I* was the dummy...So we had to mill and add about twenty of them in place. Same order came in short of one 4'x6' large center unit for a bay. It was on the order paperwork but not on the truck. So I had people moved in with drapes hung over a big hole in the wall and plastic with a two story staging right outside. Once it came in, we got it installed trimmed and painted with siding fit to all in two days
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To continue the pella discussion.
Paul, I don't know if this is the case in your area. Here for close to 30 years we had a local pella distributor. It was an individual owned company, not a factory operation. The sales staff was trained by pella for sure, on those junkets the co. puts on.
At any rate, it was as good as the local operation-which for years I thought was great. My experience with the product from Iowa has also been acceptable.
Contrasting with Marvin. In the late 80's Marvin's dist. was also locally owned. #### sales staff (at least one) and poorly run company I guess as they went under (after underperforming) Getting service and adjustments out of them was like pulling teeth.
I would hesitate to throw the #### blanket over either product because of my experience with the local end.
In both cases I got to know the ins/outs of each operation and would direct all my contact to (or from) just a couple individuals, not necessarily to the rep they gave me. On anything non usual you've surely got to be on top of it, as I'm sure you are.
As far as the coding on orders............I'm sure it's understandable by someone, but certainly not this dumb carpenter. So much so, I would go into the back office and have one of the good looking girls in the back explain it to me.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Here at this end, the distributor is down in Somerset NH.
Nearest store is in Portland.
They have a territory served by a local rep. I don't know who that is right now because I have gone through three of them in the time I've used Pella products.On my last whole house order, one item was screwed up three times dues to a paperwork mistake by the rep. I was the one who finally figured out what he was doing wrong to send a unit that was thee inches too small. On the same order, I caught another error of his before the order went in. He was ordering a 29" window ( several of them) where my order clearly showed 2'9"Then we finally got it all installed and after painting and landscaping I found that more than half the window screens would not fit. Those that did fit the space had the secure hardware in the wrong place to latch it in.
The distrutor service rep told me how it could be fixed, but when I asked him when he was going to come on out to do that for me, he said, "If you think I'm going to drive all the way up there to deal with this, you are crazy" He wanted me to have to buy a special tool to make slots and spend a day covering up for Pella's mistakes. So then we compromised that he was going top have the Pella truck pick up all the old screens and send me replacements. AFAIK, those old screens are still sitting on the dock where they were supposed to pick them up after ten phone calls....I found it cheaper to have my local glass guy make up new screens and install them for me to satisfy my customer. Money out of pocket and good bye Pella.My experience here with Marvin and their distrbutors has been all good
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There is a much better analogy.
If you asked me what I would do in that situation - I would do exactly what you did.
I really, realy hate to pick nits - but somebody's gonna'.
2'9" minus 29" is 4".
;)Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Are you comparing the 4" and the 3"?Those were two different jobs.I have quite a long list of their screw-ups so I can see the confusion....
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I quit comparing 3" to 4" when I turned 5 years old. ;)Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
"I do think the salesman would be a better salesman if he would have asked about the wall section, however IMO it's not his ultimate responsibility"?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!It is my opinion that that is his ONLY responsibility. I guess I think this way because I've studied the masters like Gittomer, Zig Ziglar, and many others like Ralph Roberts, Joe Girard, etc. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
What I'm getting at is one can not place blame for an over-site on their behalf on someone else.
Relying on someone else to do your job for you will end real bad real quick.
Part of a general's job is to make sure all the details match up. With every window manufacturer I've worked with, when you order a window you need to specify the wall depth, if not you'll get a standard depth with no jamb extension. If the guy didn't know that was important it tells me he's probably in over his head a bit especially since he assumed he would get what ever he needed without being specific and this didn't dawn on him until after the order. As for making jamb extensions, it's probably cheaper to make them then it is to purchase from Pella.
Sure the salesman was acting like an order taker and not probing, he's not very good at his job I'll agree, is he at fault for this? Nah, not in my book...
I think there may be more to it than just that.Things that are standard on other windows are not on Pella. Like with them there has to be a extension, the only question is what size extension. But with many others the question is what size jamb. otherwise you get 4-9/16. with Pella you have to order something to get a 4-9/16Or the sills missing on mine. I get told that model comes with no sill unless you order it. That is just silly for them to sell with nothing and not even ask what do you want, but worse to sit there with me telling them what I want and then later tell me I should have said something.I think what it is other than incompetence is leaving little things off so the bid comes in looking like a better bottom line than Marvin - until later when you figure out what was not included and the price would have been more....
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Fault? Lets forget about fault for a moment. Lets talk about how I frame for my customers.I know what needs to be done. I do it. They don't know. I'm the expert. I sell them carpentry services. They don't know what they are getting till I'm done. I do it. I walk out. It's done right and they don't need to call me back and ask for extension anything.It's my fault that the job gets done right because I sold the job, then followed through on all the details. So, you are right. It's the buyer's fault that they trusted the experts and got the HD shaft. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I think we're mostly on the same page, or maybe not, but using your example you're right, you're the expert, I'm the expert, the customer hires. I take it as part of my responsibility to know what I need to order, when it comes to windows part of that is Jamb depth.
Anyway I see your point and at the same time feel the contractor has responsibility to ensure he knows what he's ordering and what factors he needs to consider.
As a contractor, I might not know every single thing about the window I'm buying, but I certainly know what size jamb to tell them. Any contractor should know that no matter what. There's no excuse. Even if the Pella guy didn't bring that up, the contractor should and has to no better.99% of everyone here sheaths with 1/2" and frames with either 2x4 or 2x6 walls for new construction. The windows come made for 2x4 walls or 2x6 walls, you just have to specify 2x6. When your dealing with existing homes 30-40+ years old, most of the sheathing is 3/4" and some houses with plaster, so you have to give a jamb width no matter what. Even if it's your first job, you can't blame the window guy for that.Joe Carola
Framer - this window did not come made for a 2x4 or 2x6 wall -- if it did and I still came up short because I have 3/4" sheathing, then I can understand it. I told the window rep that it was 2x4 construction -- I strongly feel that he should have said to me "the jamb depth of this unit is 4-3/16", you will need to purchase jamb extensions in order to fit properly in your wall -- or any other wall for that matter -- regardless of sheathing thickness". A very simple, yet very important point to raise. As was mentioned earlier, the whole order went into their computer software and the representative clearly entered something in for the jamb thickness variable without asking me, otherwise the order could not have proceeded.
I gotta ask.
Did he ask if you wanted to supersize your window order?
;-)
Framer - this window did not come made for a 2x4 or 2x6 wall -- if it did and I still came up short because I have 3/4" sheathing, then I can understand it. I told the window rep that it was 2x4 construction -- I strongly feel that he should have said to me "the jamb depth of this unit is 4-3/16",
You told him 2x4 wall, but yet you still knew that a window for a 2x4 wall will work with 1/2" sheathing, so even if his window did come 4-9/16", it was still short by 1/4" and you still should've told him about the 3/4" sheathing and the jamb depth no matter what.
You should've said, "I have 2x4 wall framing with 3/4" sheathing and a 4-3/4" jamb depth, what do we do about the jamb?"
Either way you look at it even though he didn't tell you about the 4-3/16", you knew that there was a problem with the jamb size from the start knowing that you had 3/4" sheathing, so either way you should've mentioned it to him because you would've come up short even if he did make the jamb size to fit a 2x4 wall with 1/2" sheathing.
What would you do if you worked on a house with 2x4 walls and 3/4" sheathing, plaster and 3/8" sheetrock over the plaster and you are ordering new windows from Andersen, they don't come out and measure. It's up to the contractor to give jamb sizes not the window company.Joe Carola
You had me until you mentioned details and framing in the same sentance.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
To be a good framer, one needs to know a few thousand details. Remodelers don't need to know them because they are working to something, not creating something. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
To be a good framer, one needs to know a few thousand details.
Remodelers don't need to know them because they are working to something, not creating something.
Jim,
Can you explain that please?
I do new framing, additions and remodeling. To remodel a house, I can rip apart just about everything in that house as far as the framing and make it new.Or, rip apart the existing framing and tie in the new framing to it. There are a million scenarios I can tell you as far as tying into existing homes with framing. So basically what I'm doing is ripping apart the existing something and creating a new something with new framing using some of my 1000 details.
Existing roofs for example are an existing something, now I have to cut into that roof and tie a new roof into by putting in new rafters and valleys to make an existing roof with a flat ceiling cathedral, also changing the existing roof lines into something new.
There are many things you have to know as a good framer in order to remodel a home and make the new framing work with the old. What details are you talking about when framing new that remodeling doesn't need to know?
Joe Carola
Edited 12/28/2007 3:00 pm ET by Framer
"To remodel a house, I can rip apart just about everything in that house as far as the framing and make it new.Or, rip apart the existing framing and tie in the new framing to it. "You forgot one more Joe - You can recognize when the existing work is framed wrong and take steps top correct it as well.
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You forgot one more Joe - You can recognize when the existing work is framed wrong and take steps top correct it as well.
I'll add that to the list. I've worked behind framers that only frame new homes that complete screw up remodeling. They don't have the patience to sit there and try to figure the job out the right way, they just want to frame, frame ,frame and get it done. That ain't happening in remodeling.Joe Carola
I've done both. It takes a whole lot more different skills to do remodeling properly than to do framing properly. Framing is only one of the subsets needed to do remo work.I C - you were just trying to have fun and stir a hornets nest....
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Uh Oh.
What did I do.
I was only kiddin'
I should go back to lurker status?
Baaad J, Bad J.
;)Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Yer fine Jhole.I know a chain wanker when I see one.And I was getting ya back but I don't normally do smiley faces. I'd rather stir the hornets nest...as mentioned.The comparison between framers and remodelers works both ways. Great remodelers don't make good framers and great framers don't make good remodelers. Remodelers are working on something that is already there. They normally remove something, then replace it. They're not creating it from nothing.A framer starts with nothing and creates something. If he does it right, the hundreds of people following him will have an easy go of it. It will look right and function right. When the remodelers show up in a few decades, they will be updating, not repairing if the framer has understood and attended to the aforementioned thousand details. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
" Great remodelers don't make good framers and great framers don't make good remodelers."Very true! We remo guys have to stop and figure it out over a cup of java then do it. Framers just do it, then have the ccuppajoe
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" then have the ccuppajoe "
Is that what you call the stuff they roll up into those little papers?
Huh, who'd a thought.
;)Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Ok.
Accept, I actually think remodelers actually remove, create something wholly different from the existing, and retrofit back into an existing structure.
I generally think of removing and replacing as home service.
Framers cut and stack the pieces, remodelers fabricate the assemblies and fit them back in.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Remodelers are working on something that is already there. They normally remove something, then replace it. They're not creating it from nothing.
Jim,
What do you call it when I go into house and rip it apart by completely removing a section of the house and then completely building something new and tying into the existing house?
What do you call it when I rip the roof off a house down to the top plate and put a second floor on?
Or rip the roof off a house and completely change the whole roof around and making cathedral ceilings in some sections of the house?
These are just a couple examples of completely removing areas of the existing house down to nothing and creating something new.Joe Carola
Its remodeling. I'm not saying that you dont' have incredible skill. I'm just saying it's a different ballgame. It's apples to oranges.There are thousands of remodelers who will not tear off a roof and put a second story on. We are in the middle of that exact job right now and we've had a few remodelers come and bid stuff and tell us that they won't do anything as extensive as we are doing. Most remodelers are removing and replacing in some basic form. They take a 12 piece of trim off and figure a way to put it back on. They remove a floor covering and put it back on. They remove a cabinet and put it back. Its all a different game. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
" Most remodelers are removing and replacing in some basic form. They take a 12 piece of trim off and figure a way to put it back on. They remove a floor covering and put it back on. They remove a cabinet and put it back. Its all a different game."
FWIW I refer to that as home service.
Nothing in that scenario was "remodelled" it was serviced.
The guys who looked at your job were handymen not remodellers.
Remodelling is what you are doing to your project.
Framers build new construction housing rough structures.
This is not to say that a framer can not do a remodelling project such as you are, and as framer is suggesting. The same as my remodelling background that led me at some point to building new houses.
But, the guys who don't have the skillset to do what we are talking about are not remodellers, they are service people. They fix things, not create them.
Please don't take my comments to be condescending as I do my fair share of service work also, I just know when I am doing it i am servicing.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Its remodeling.
Even though its remodeling, your still remodeling an existing house sometimes and opening it up to nothing and starting fresh, just a new house to frame. You have an open deck to start with.
I'm not saying that you dont' have incredible skill. I'm just saying it's a different ballgame. It's apples to oranges.
I know it's apples and oranges because this is what I do for a living. I started out just stickily framing custom homes and some tract homes and then started doing additions many years ago. Since then I do new framing and additions all year around. So I know what it's like doing both.
Framers who strictly do new work that come in and do one remodel or addition once a year or once every two years screw the job up. How I know is that I get called in to fix it. It's an absolute joke what they do.
There are thousands of remodelers who will not tear off a roof and put a second story on.
You're absolutely right about that because they call me in to do it for them. This is the reason why I have, "Framing Specialist" on my truck because no matter where I'm at whether it be a lumberyard, Duncan Donuts, or Block Buster, Contractor, Builders and Remodelers will read my truck and call me because some framing jobs are just to big for them to handle.
So, my point is that as Framer doing new work, I'm also a Remodeling Framer working on older homes by ripping some apart and bringing them down to nothing and building new.Joe Carola
Jim just can't come to terms with the fact that remodelin' framers are smarter than new const framers ...
that's all.
no big deal.
Jeff
better looking too.
and eveyone knows they smell better ... so that's a moot point. Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
What you are describing there is a handyman, not a professional remodelor
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You forgot the smiley face.
Ive been both - full production new construction, and remodeling contractor twice.
I got a pretty good read on both sides.
I was just yankin' yur chain.
;)Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
exactly! Could be worse. Order a custom metal roof that is trash. My fault. I had a bad rep/supplier as well. But it comes down to me.
Edited 12/25/2007 2:46 pm ET by popawheelie
It is a scam to add to the base price of the window. They will tell you that tis enables them to build to any standard wall depth commonly used in todays construction. If you had a "real" window sales person.... they would have posed that question to you and built the window to the correct depth so you did not have to do the "xtra" work on site... Andersen casements used to have a 2 7/8" "standard" jamb depth!!!!