I had a plumbing inspection today on my project and the inspector dinged me because there wasn’t a sleeve through the foundation wall where the plumbing sub ran a standard 3″ waste out of the house and into the grinder. We core drilled a 4″ hole through a 12″ thick foundation wall and we ran the ABS pipe through that but it was still a tight fit.
Mr. Plumbing inspector said he would allow the pipe to be wrapped in that blue sill seal stuff if you know what that is. But he wouldn’t allow me to squirt some expanding spray foam in there.
I’ve been doing this stuff for 27 years and the plumber on site has been doing it for at least 20 and his boss has been in the business forever too and none of them has ever had to do this. I even called a side sewer guy and asked him if he’s ever had to run a waste in a sleeve and he said no too.
To Mr. Plumbing inspectors credit he did show me a code book that had a section about sleeves but he didn’t let me look at it long enough to determine what materials were suitable or if it was applicable in my application so I have no idea what book he was looking in or a code number to cross reference anything.
The upshot is that unless I can’t stuff/wrap that pipe with blue sill seal all the way through the core’d hole I’m going to have to remove all the plumbing in the slab that we just put in, call back the core driller and bore a larger hole. But to do that I have to remove all the sewer hook ups to the grinder pump outside the bldg because we can’t get the core drill in there with all that sewer piping in the way. We’re easily talking 2 friggin grand to do it that way.
This is in part a b1tch and moan but also to ask if anybody has any free links to the latest 2006 Uniform Plumbing Code online. I don’t want to spring a bunch of money for the book.
Attached is a pic of the location of the grinder and about where it comes out of the building. As I look in the pic you can’t really see anything about the waste line so basically disregard the pic. I attached it before I realized it didn’t show much.
Anyway if you have a link I would appreciate it.
BjR
Replies
Just saw this, so I don't have time to look in my book this AM. Will check tonight if you're still seeking answers.
Good luck.
The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
King Co. library has ref copies of UPC.
I can't answer your question, sorry. I am more interested in how you created the lines and text in your pic. What program did you use?
"May the forces of evil be confused on the way to your house." -George Carlin
I just do new residential construction - not remodel work, but my plumbers always sleeve a waste pipe where it goes through a foundation, footing, etc. and the inspectors require it. Often times the sleeve is just a piece of PVC pipe - the next size up. Or, sometimes they use sill seal held in place with duct tape.
Edit: be aware that I live clear on the other side of the US.
Edited 2/2/2008 9:38 am ET by Matt
We have always had to sleeve in King, Pierce, Snohomish, Skagit, and Whatcom counties.
"We have always had to sleeve in King, Pierce, Snohomish, Skagit, and Whatcom counties"
Did you have to put in a sleeve for remodel work or for new construction? I understand it's benefit for new construction where you can pour a sleeve in place but we've never had to do it for a remodel. Expanding foam around the pipe in a core drilled hole was always adequate seperation for corrosion resistance and blue foam around pipes getting concrete poured around them in a new slab or infill has always been adequate before.
BjR
I misspoke. When I meant sleeve, I should have said an isolation member. We have used sleeves, and more commonly, sill foam.
Isn't your hole big enough to fish foam into? I don't think you have nearly as big a problem as you seem to think.
I misspoke. When I meant sleeve, I should have said an isolation member. We have used sleeves, and more commonly, sill foam.
Isn't your hole big enough to fish foam into? It's really tight. The pipe going through it is slightly at an angle so it cut's off from being able to fish the sill foam around it completly. We've tried with not much success. That's why I'm lobbying for the expanding foam. I don't think you have nearly as big a problem as you seem to think.
BjR
Is it your problem, or the plumbers?
"Is it your problem, or the plumbers?"
I will beat that horse with them on Monday
BjR
^
|
|
BJR - this guy can probably give you a more definitive answer and some better ideas.
Edited 2/2/2008 9:43 am ET by Matt
and you wonder why walmart wont hire these people
.
two ways to screw up concrete 1) concrete driver 2) concrete finisher
To Mr. Plumbing inspectors credit he did show me a code book that had a section about sleeves but he didn't let me look at it long enough to determine what materials were suitable or if it was applicable in my application so I have no idea what book he was looking in or a code number to cross reference anything.
If he's showing you the code book and wants you to do it as per code, why in the world didn't you ask him exactly what he wanted and to let you look at the book long enough to see what he wanted?
Is it a guessing game and the inspector is saying"ha, ha, ha, you figure it out? I don't get it.
I would have told him to show/tell me exactly what he wants and what I have to do to get it right before he walked away.
Why did you let him walk away without you having your answers?
If he's showing you the code book and wants you to do it as per code, why in the world didn't you ask him exactly what he wanted and to let you look at the book long enough to see what he wanted? My project was about a mile away from the city hall and I needed some time to compose myself and so I waited until the end of the day for him to get back to the office from the field to show him the spray foam that has been approved in other jurisdictions to spray around a pipe in a core drilled hole to provide the separation. He pulled out a book and just kinda waved it at me and said it was quitting time and he was leaving (actually he had another 45 minutes before the office closed so he had time to give me) So that's why I couldn't really see what he was trying to show me. I have since then found in the 2006 IPC 305.1 a chapter that talks about corrosion and separation but it doesn't say what the required materials are for that and the spray foam has been satisfactory for that in the past.
Is it a guessing game and the inspector is saying"ha, ha, ha, you figure it out? I don't get it. I don't get it either. Isn't it our tax dollars paying his salary?
I would have told him to show/tell me exactly what he wants and what I have to do to get it right before he walked away. He did. He said he would only accept, at a minimum, the blue polyethylene sill seal foam wrapped completely around the pipe or an enlarged hole lined with a two sizes larger ABC sleeve through the foundation wall that is underground. And I'm contending that the spray foam will do the exact same thing the blue foam does for a fraction of the cost in a core drilled hole. It would be another thing if the pipe was just stuck through a busted out hole from a sledge hammer but this was a nice clean hole that would fill nicely with spray foam to do the same thing.
Why did you let him walk away without you having your answers? As I said, he said it was quitting time and he essentially walked away. All this time I was being very civil and nice and not hostile or angry and I was genuinely wanting to work with the guy but he just took a defensive posture and dug in his heels and walked away. If I thought I could get away with it I'd send a note to his superior about his behavior but that would most certainly come back to bite me in the azz at some future time.
BjR
Joe Carola
He said he would only accept, at a minimum, the blue polyethylene sill seal foam wrapped completely around the pipe or an enlarged hole lined with a two sizes larger ABC sleeve through the foundation wall that is underground. And I'm contending that the spray foam will do the exact same thing the blue foam does for a fraction of the cost in a core drilled hole.
He told you to your face that he would only accept the blue foam. You're trying to get away with something else that you say is compatable. You have your answer but yet you want to go with something that is cheaper.
Finish the job and get on with it. How much more can the blue stuff cost you dollar wise, will you go broke using the stuff the building inspector wants you to use and will only accept what he told you to use?
Joe Carola
Edited 2/2/2008 4:22 pm ET by Framer
"He told you to your face that he would only accept the blue foam. You're trying to get away with something else that you say is compatible. You have your answer but yet you want to go with something that is cheaper.
Finish the job and get on with it. How much more can the blue stuff cost you dollar wise, will you go broke using the stuff the building inspector wants you to use and will only accept what he told you to use?"
It's not the cost of the blue polyurethane I'm pizzed about it's the fact we have to remove all the plumbing to make the fix and core drill again to make the hole bigger to wrap the pipe with blue. It does say in the UBC that sleeves are not required where openings are drilled or bored. It also says that you have to protect the pipe from contact with the concrete. All I'm asking him to consider is that in the absence of a specific product designated to make the separation in the code books that spray foam has been in the past in the jurisdiction that I usually work in an accepted product to make the separation in similar circumstances. And because to completely wrap the pipe as he wants will be a really big expense to remove the plumbing to re-core the hole bigger. It's a 4" hole with a three " pipe but it's still too tight to wrap it from the outside with out taking it all apart. Combined with all this aggravation is the fact that the owners are only living in the place as an ADU while their new house is being built next door, then the building is coming down. Seems like foam would be an easy cost effective solution to a temporary situation and he knows that.
BjR
why can't you take a larger size of piece of pipe and cut it in half on the band saw and slip it in on both sides of the existing pipe?
He has 3" IPS (3.5" OD) plastic pipe going thru a 4" hole. At an angle. Not alot to play with
Wonder if your Inspector Pal would accept something else..........
I'm thinking head to Walmart & get a plastic trash can.
Give or take it's going to be 1/8" plastic?
Cut a sheet of trash can wide enough to wrap around the pipe and slide it in.
Couple big hose clamps off a Fernco to hold it in place and you're done.
Maybe. Or maybe he's just an azzhole and you'll never be done. As BB sez, that's why Walmart didn't hire him.
Joe H
Who's your inspector?
Steve Nasty
Too hard to handle Randle
Vic I may be short, but I'm ornery------ doubt it he's retired
Diamond Dave
Spacy Tracy
OK don't tell them I said any of that, I do know them all.
I'm not up on every change for the 2006, & my 20 story condo in Bellevue is under the 03 code.
The pipe ABS, PVC, cast iron, copper et al cannot be in direct contact with concrete.
Since it is a 4" core drill 4" pipe will not go through it, but Proset¯ sleeve pipe for 3" will.
Sleeve pipe is basically a very long coupling & you just cut it to fit.
Does this have to be water proof penetration?
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
"2006 Uniform Plumbing Code online. I don't want to spring a bunch of money for the book."
" have since then found in the 2006 IPC 305.1 "
Use caution. The IPC and UPC are very different in some areas. I know that they are on venting.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
BjR,
If I understand the situation you have a 12" wall with your pipe coming out both sides , unless he is superman with xray vision ,you should be able to stretch the sill seal arond the pipe and stuff it in the best you can from both sides thus isolating your pipe from the concrete and satisfing the inspector. I probably would trim the insulation after you stuff it in the best you can ,to make it look as good as you can.
Tim
BjR,
If I understand the situation you have a 12" wall with your pipe coming out both sides , unless he is superman with xray vision ,you should be able to stretch the sill seal arond the pipe and stuff it in the best you can from both sides thus isolating your pipe from the concrete and satisfing the inspector. I probably would trim the insulation after you stuff it in the best you can ,to make it look as good as you can.
Tim
I can stuff it in there a little bit and could " fake" it.....but...
1. I don't work like that....
2. In the absolute remotest, rare possibility that the inspector should ever find out it could be absolute future hell on my client who is building his new house in a real environmentally sensitive area. All the "i's" need to be dotted and all the "T's" crossed on this one. It took them 15 years of back and forth with bunches of designers and regulators just to come up with a design that complied with all the environmental regulations to allow a stream that is running through the property and directly through the existing house. It then took five more years to go through the permit process once the design was bought off by all the regulatory agencies. This whole project I'm doing now is just for temporary housing in an adjacent building.
3. I don't work like that...
But thanks for all you input campers. This is a great board. I went out there today and tried to lube the pipe and core up with some dishsoap and slide the sill foam in but it didn't work. So, I'll drop it in the plumbers lap on monday. He did tell me to core a 4" hole so I think he should have to make it work.
BjR
According to the National Plumbing Code which is very similar to the Uniform Code, the inspector is right . Section 2.9 says protection of pipes through concrete. Section 2.12 specifies the size of sleeves.
I'm not disputing whether the inspector is right or not. I know and understand there has to be separation between concrete and pipe and I've done that every time I've ran a waste line through concrete and we allowed for that in this instance too. I'm taking issue with the material he says he wants in the annular space. Myself and the plumber have successfully used expanding spray foam in the past and it has not been rejected in other jurisdictions. The City states in it's charter that they recognize the UPC. Under UPC 313.10 Sleeves: it states you have to sleeve anything going through concrete and masonry walls with the exception where openings are drilled or bored. We expected that and prepped for that. In 313.10.3 it states on exterior walls the annular space needs to sealed and made water tight as approved by the authority having jurisdiction as well. Well our take is the foam makes a water tight seal and the blue sill foam does not.
BjR
What happened? Who won?
"blue sill seal stuff if you know what that is."
sorry, just saw this we call it "blue skin" here, it's basically like peel & stick ice and water sheild only it has an extra platic layer on it .. used it under exterior doors, windows, etc ..