Replies

1. 
   junkhound | Jan 24, 2007 04:57am | #1

   Welcome to BT.

   You should have no problem, assuming 6000E means it is a 6 kW generator.

    

1. 
   jeffpreston | Jan 24, 2007 09:12pm | #4

   Thanks junkhound.  Yes, it is a 6KW generator.  jeff

2. 
   DanH | Jan 24, 2007 05:54am | #2

   Starting load is the issue. The generator should have some sort of statement as to the largest motor (HP-wise) it can start.

   So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
1. 
   jeffpreston | Jan 24, 2007 09:09pm | #3

   DanH:  thank you for your comment.  I was told to get the amp rating of the motor and size the generator for 2 to 3 times that to handle the surge demand.  Delta won't give me that figure (I"ll track it down) they only said that they do not reccomend using a generator.  jeff

3. 
   maddog3 | Jan 25, 2007 12:45am | #5

   a good rule of thumb is to figure 2500 Watts per Hp for starting.

   and hopefuly your not living on a mountain

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1. 
   jeffpreston | Jan 25, 2007 12:52am | #6

   Maddog3:  Wonderful, thanks.  What about the mountain?  I am on a ridge at around 1,950' in Mendocino county, CA.  jeff

1. 
   DanH | Jan 25, 2007 01:50am | #7

   You have to derate a genset for altitude. Kinda like adjusting a cake formula.
   So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

1. 
   jeffpreston | Jan 25, 2007 02:27am | #9

   I see.

2. 
   junkhound | Jan 25, 2007 02:15am | #8

   You dont need to derate the generator itself till above 3000 ft (cooling).

   Depending on the size of the gas engine, it is good to about 2000 ft without derating, 3-4%/kft after that depending on the engine.

   If you convert to propane, even at sea level you could lose 15% to start with - OK if the gas engine is big enough.

   Your tech manual that came with the generator should tell you all this or get it of the mfg web site.  The manual should tell you the gas engine kW drive capability, derate from that, not from the generator rating.

   If you are only starting tools, with no TV or computer running at the same time, 1 kW per HP is plenty to get up and running.  You can start tools pretty good at even 900 W per HP --  the engine speed sags and the voltage and frequency drops while the big motor comes up to speed, which is why the typical recommend big generator oversize if starting a big motor while more voltage critical equimpment like a computer or TV is on the line. .

1. 
   jeffpreston | Jan 25, 2007 02:52am | #10

   My manual says 5500 watts rated/6000 watts maximum. Also, amps/rated 45.8/22.9.   I don't remember a reference to drive capability but I will look when I get in front of the manual.  The Onan website has a chart which suggests 3600 watts necessary to start a 10" table saw (with no mention of HP).  I definitely like the sound of 1000w per hp as opposed to the 2500w per hp "rule of thumb".  Since you have already said "no problem" I guess I can assume that you don't believe there is any harm done to the motors from the "sagging" engine speed upon start up.  thanks alot, jeff   

1. 
   DanH | Jan 25, 2007 03:01am | #11

   1000W/HP is cutting it pretty close. But you don't need the 3500 or whatever unless the motor is starting under considerable load.Note that you can RUN as much stuff as you want up to the genset limit, but when STARTING a motor you need to have the extra watts available, over whatever the current load is. You don't need to have 1000-3500W/HP or whatever for EACH motor load, just for the one you're starting at the moment.
   So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

2. 
   jeffpreston | Jan 25, 2007 04:00am | #12

   Got it - thanks. My use will likely be one machine at a time with a dust collector being the only machine that might result in two motors running at once.  Lights and 110v will be off solar.  jeff

3. 
   DanH | Jan 25, 2007 04:38am | #13

   When you have a bunch of stuff to start off a genset, you start the biggest motor first, then next biggest, etc. This maximizes the power you can use off the genset.
   So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

4. 
   jeffpreston | Jan 25, 2007 08:46pm | #17

   makes sense.  thanks alot for your input Dan.  jeff

5. 
   maddog3 | Jan 25, 2007 05:03am | #14

   jeff, the "rule of thumb " is of course just that, some folks use their gennys for emergencies instead of standby or in your case "normal" power.and emergencies have folks trying to run their whole house with small gauge cords that are too long.
   and of course all reason is tossed out with the baby & the bathwater at that point
   regardless the "rule " is worst case.... motors that are slow to start will need big cords or wire and extra watts to keep the gen from laboring to maintain speed....everyone is saying pretty much the same thing.

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6. 
   jeffpreston | Jan 25, 2007 08:48pm | #18

   Thanks.  I will be running this whole thing past an electrician.  jeff

4. 
   renosteinke | Jan 25, 2007 07:58pm | #15

   Onan is one of the better generator companies out there. For your conversion, and your sizing, I really suggest that you talk to Onan. let their engineers and sales reps earn their pay!

   Propane will not deliver near the power of gasoline or diesel. It ought to give you some more than natural gas. Various changes will need to be made to the engine, and the controls ... so Onan is who you should work with in this.

   In many ways, 'too much' generator is as bad as 'too little.' There are accessories, such as "load banks" that are used to 'even out' loading.

   Even if you are 50 miles from your nearest neighbor, noise is an issue. Again, Onan will have suggestions for making that 'roar' into a 'hum.'

   Finally, and perhaps most important .... just because you're "off the grid" is no reason to ignore the electric code. It is in your interest to ensure that you have the assorted circuit breakers, disconnect switches, etc. This will help protect you, your tools, and the generator. This is especially true as to grounding!

1. 
   Luka | Jan 25, 2007 08:06pm | #16

   "Propane will not deliver near the power of gasoline or diesel. It ought to give you some more than natural gas. Various changes will need to be made to the engine, and the controls ... so Onan is who you should work with in this."http://www.propane-generators.com/
   Laughter is the closest distance between two people. --Victor Borge

1. 
   jeffpreston | Jan 25, 2007 09:00pm | #20

   Cool.  Thanks for the link.  jeff

2. 
   jeffpreston | Jan 25, 2007 08:59pm | #19

   Renosteinke:  Thank you for your input.  Since the generator came with my property when I bought it, I just never thought to ask Onan for help.  I hate lugging around the gas can and sucking the fumes when filling the tank, that is the only reason I figured I would convert to propane.  I am quite far from neighbors but I will plan to build something resembling a "soundproof booth" for my own sanity.  There will be an electrician associated with the project and I definitely want everything to code.  jeff

1. 
   dovetail97128 | Jan 26, 2007 01:36am | #21

   HiJack Here..
   Just built a new shop . Have a 30 amp. breaker for a 2 hp. table saw ( old jet cabinet saw). Can I start and run a 3 hp. dust collector system on the same circuit at the same time?
   Thinking of the ClearVue Cyclone which has a 5 hp. start up rated motor on it.

1. 
   DanH | Jan 26, 2007 03:22am | #22

   In general fans have relatively low startup demands, compared to other motor uses, so startup-wise it's likely OK. To "fine tune" this situation, temporarily put a lightbulb on the same circuit. Start up each motor individually. See which one makes the bulb dim the most. Start that one first.But the problem that you have is that one HP is about 750W, and 5HP total is 3750W. If you have a 120V circuit (you didn't say it was 240V) there then 30A is only 3600W, and you're never supposed to load a breaker to 100%.But the saw only draws full current when fully loaded, and probably the dust system only draws full current when delivering full volume. So it MAY all work out.

   So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

1. 
   dovetail97128 | Jan 26, 2007 03:31am | #23

   Thanks,
   Sorry for the lack of information. 220 v. /30 amp circuit. 2 hp./220 saw. 3 hp. Blower motor starts and spins a 14-16 " cast or welded impeller for the blower.

2. 
   DanH | Jan 26, 2007 03:33am | #24

   OK, then you should be OK, but maybe try the lightbulb thing. (It may be that just the regular shop lights will tell you.)
   So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin

2. 
   Piffin | Jan 26, 2007 05:15am | #27

   How many amps?
   I have a tool motor rated at 14.5 amps on 110V, but the startup draw is measured at 29.7 amps actual, more when it is cold or hot, so I trips 30A breakers often. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   dovetail97128 | Jan 26, 2007 05:37am | #29

   Piffen,
   The saw (220 / 2 hp.) is rated at 15 amps at the switch . I cannot see the motor itself without some dissembling.
   The Blower motor ( 220 / 3 hp) is rated at 20 amps.
   I have a 30 amp. 220 breaker, # 10 wire.
   Blower Motor supplier link
   http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/120554.htm

5. 
   Piffin | Jan 26, 2007 04:37am | #25

   I have that generator.
   It will handle everything you name here, more or less.

   You don't want to run everything at the same time.

   Extremely cold weather will make startup draw from the bigger motors greater, and noticeable, but not damaging, as far as I can tell.

   Use good cords and plugs. No sense loosing all that power you make on the way to the tool.

    

    

   Welcome to the
   Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
    where ...
   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   jeffpreston | Jan 26, 2007 05:00am | #26

   Awesome. thanks.  Do you think that I am trippin with my intent to convert it to propane?  jeff

1. 
   Piffin | Jan 26, 2007 05:22am | #28

   From what I've heard, propane would make it last longer with fewer oil changes, but somebody said something about a power lose with propane? I don't know about that. Storage and transport of fuel is an issue to have your local answers for, along with cost. For me, I considered buying it in the propane version, but bottled gas costs a lot more here on this island. Also you don't always get all the gas out of the bottle in cold weather.
   One thing some people don't consider when buying and setting up a genset for emergencies - they think that if there is a storm and power outage, they will just run down and get five gallons of fuel. Then they get caught finding out that the gas station needs electricity topower the gas pumps. With a bank of gas bottles you are set, and propane doesn't go bad over time like gas can. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   jeffpreston | Jan 26, 2007 08:24pm | #30

   with the propane, I have a large tank so it is kinda outa sight outa mind.  thanks

1. 
   Piffin | Jan 26, 2007 08:50pm | #31

   That'd be the way to go then. The Coast Gaurd won't5 let us get bottles bigger than 100# on the ferry. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   jeffpreston | Jan 27, 2007 05:34am | #32

   thanks Piffin.  jeff