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The PICTURE: A Pacific NW 1925 Craftsman Bungalow style house. The footprint is 25’X 40′. The second floor is a ‘half story’ … meaning that the pitch of the roof is high enough to allow for a full room at the center and a little, sloped ceiling room slightly off to side of center … but MOST of the 2nd floor is unusable ‘attic’ type side space. ((roof-ridge runs crosswise to length of house and roof slopes down to rest on short sides)).
The QUESTION: How feasable to 1)take off roof, put up full height walls all the way around, redo roof (thereby capturing full 2nd floor space. — or — 2)(prefered daydream) take off roof, put up full height walls all the way around, floor it, put up SECOND full height walls all the way around, THEN redo simple roof (with lookout deck of course!)
RELATED FACTS: The height issue is not a problem since my limit is 40 feet. The house rests on level land on a good, full, concrete foundation with half basement.
The heart of my question is really the COST for a hired-in basic tear-off, framing/walls/floor/walls/roof for me to finish off interior. I know no-one here can actually SEE it and there would be a million considerations … but I’m floating this as a broad-range question, as in… your cousin asks you casually, “hey .. whaddaya think it’d cost me to have a second (or second and a half) story dropped onto my place if I finished it off myself?” And he’s not going to ‘hold you’ to anything.
Also — someone told me, “have the place jacked up and slip a new first story in under. Is this a wiser/sounder approach in some way?
Big question, I know. Hope it’s not so big it can’t be realistically approached. I’ll answer any ‘must-know-first’s that are needed.
Thank you.
as.
Replies
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Aaron,
I did this once, shortly after reading a FHB article that gave good tips. Unless you're gutting the first floor anyway, I wouldn't jack the whole house up. Leave the roof in place, cut pockets out of the roof over the wall plate every 32" or 48". Nail in studs, put a top plate on the studs, floor joists or rafter ties, and rafters. Sheathe the roof, cover with a big tarp, then start tearing off the old roof.
This isn't really do-it-yourself territory, and you would DEFINATELY want an engineer to verify your existing walls and foundation could handle the loads. You may get away with adding a second floor; adding a third floor would probably require a lot of beefing up of the existing structure.
As for cost it depends where you are, maybe in the range of $10K-$30K for the basic structure. Could easily be more if there are any tricky details.
Mike
*Well you do have big ideas! But understand what you are doing is a one-off custom job that depends on structural conditions none of us can see.So, ask yourself: Why am I doing this instead of just selling and buying/building another house?Most of the time unless one of two situations exist this kind of thing is not a good idea. The first situation is that it is part of an urban renewal where the land and location are primo. Maybe even there is some value to restoring the historical nature of the area. The second situation is that you have the skills to do most of it yourself and can save money over doing something else.If you decide to go ahead on your own find a Good, Experienced engineer and architect to help you. Otherwise you are just spitting in the wind and taking on a second job for the misery of it. If you want someone else to do it find a Good Experienced contractor who can and will talk to you in your language, agree on a deal and enjoy watching it happen. But none of this will be cheap.
*Talked to contractor from the East coast one day and he was telling me how he made a living adding second stories on ranches. He freed the rafters at the plates, attached a cable to the ridge, probably some sort of a spread deal, and lifted the whole roof with a crane. Had the exterior walls pre-built and stacked in the center, set them up quickly and lowered the roof back in place. One day. That's the way to do it cause all you need to do is patch the roof where the cables went through and side the thing. I never tried it, but there must be a bunch of guys who have.
*I'm considering something very similar, and there is most definitely another reason to do it, to wit, if I sell my house even with the huge profit plowed back into another house, after transactions costs, I'm looking at a $300K mortgage. But even with a $70K addition/renovation I've only got about $180K mortgage. You do the math.In many areas that have seen the recent run up in prices, if you like the precise location you are in, it is financially more practical to expand than to sell and move to a larger house in the same area. Remember that the transactions costs of buying and selling are very high, particularly as the price of the houses go up. Where I am, I could easily be out 40K to sell my 250K bungelow and buy a 400K four square, which is what they are going for right now.
*Mike -- I love the idea of that practical approach to proceeding on this. Let me say, however, that it seems to me from as clearly as I can imagine it, that it would only be feasable to approach it in that manner if one were going for one floor (more) only, and a roof. If you were going for another floor .. and then ANOTHER ...and then a roof ... you couldn't come straight across with the first new floor joists as you'd run into the old roof. (Hmmm .. maybe I'm missing something) So I love the idea in theory but am unsure how it would work in practice. I guess, however, that if you were going, studwalls to top plate to rafter-ties, etc. to capture only one more level .. your new roof IF AS STEEPLY PITCHED AS THE OLD would come up over it. Yes? Also .. this approach determines in advance that each and every stud would have to be put up individually .. no raising pre-builts if every 32 to 48 inches there's a stud up already (as best I can 'see' it)By the way .. got any clues as to which issue of FHB that mighta been? I guess your right that it aint do-it-yourself territory ... but it's tempting. This would (will) be one of the most visible stagings anyone could undertake .. right up to being in a prominent position on a busy street ... so all the permits and engineering go-aheads will have to be in place well in advance (much as I sometimes resent it). Thanks for daring to slide a possible price-range across the table too. My attorney will be contacting you, of course, if you're off by much in the end. :)Fred -- There is every good reason to do this instead of selling and buying. This house sits on nearly the highest point in the entire city and with a skillfully done 'lift' it will easily capture an unobstructed 360 degree view -- mountains, lakes, etc. It is also in an area that is zoned for mixed use .. this translates to the possibility of, for example, multiple office space on the lower floors -- very lucrative around here -- and living above. I could go on but that's enough for me already! I could NEVER afford a house of the value that this could end with. I may be able to swing this 'uplift' financially, however, by handing off the key structural work and finishing it in my own sweet time. I LOVE working projects like this late nights on my own .. so I dont care how long it takes. The longer the happier. But it seems to me that there may be many many reasons why someone would wanna add on up instead of buying or building new!Jim -- Wow! ... love that tidy image of a one day top-off and underbuild. Beautiful! Almost like magic. Does your friend travel for work? I'll definitely look into it when that actual line of preparedness is ready to be crossed.Brian -- couldn't agree more on all counts. Oddly enough, I'm moving into the initial stages of selling exactly that -- a 250K bungalow -- even as I write this. Met with more realtors today in fact. And a MINIMUM of 25K of that will go to realtors and other 'attached costs'. Unbelievable. One of those, "Im in the wrong profession" moments. I'm having to finally sell the little bungalow to finance the facelift ... or toplift .. of the hilltopper. Assuming everything falls into place as planned.Thanks again guys -- any more random thoughts on any of this still greatly appreciated!Aaron
*there will be many tricky details, and this thing will cost more than 30k to rough inyou're going to spend at least that on the architect alone, aren't you?nathan
*You know what? I've seen second and third stories going on top of 'standard houses' all over this town for several years now. I dont believe for a MOMENT that I would need to spend ANYWHERE near "30K on an architect" to pre-figure the details. It IS sort of a splashy, sexy, dramatic looking job -- and it's true that not everybody's doing it ... but it just aint that totally unique of a job either. 30K? ... excuse me, but Noooooooo f'ing way!(I'd have my serious doubts about "more than 30K [just] to rough in" as well -- but thanks for your thoughts!)
*don't mention it.why the doubts? piece of cake to get a house on top of a house, huh?in a seismic zone, to boot.more than 30. hey, isn't the queene anne location worth every penny?? or is it magnolia?
*nathan,C'mon ... it aint a house on a house --it's extending outside walls upward after all the groundfloor, substantial, hardcore base-work has been done and proved itself by standing solid for years. (Were you thinkin' I was gonna try an balance a second whole house on top o da first? Why would I wanna do that!?) :)I dont expect it to be shakin while I'm workin, even though it's "in a seismic zone, to boot". But if it does? ... drop on buy since you're in the neighborhood and we'll go for a quick coffee.More than 30 to do the whole job, that's for sure. But to "rough in one story" -- that's an outside perimiter rough-in ... I certainly could be wrong, but I just dont see it.Like I said, I definitely think it'll be worth it if I can manage financially to pull it off. Seems, at this point in figuring things, like it would be.I dunno -- does anyone else think I'm nuts? One never knows for sure!
*Like everything else when a guys bragging, there's a BS factor to consider. If the roof is very simple (as in the old straight roof ranchs) I believe it would work and wouldn't be afraid to try it. If you had the room the you could perhaps even set the roof on the ground and bring the crane back later. Hell, they move whole houses around. My guess, excluding windows,siding,interior walls etc. About five grand.
*Five grand for the rough in of the second floor? Wow ... now that actually sounds quite low. You've got the job if you want it. Lemme know when you can start.
*Aaron, you're right, if the roof is steeply pitched you would run into it with floor joists or rafter ties. The one I did was a low-pitch ranch, so it wasn't an issue (by a couple of inches). As I recall the article I read ('94,'95,'96? Couldn't find it) had that problem; they may have done something like cut the rafters off above the collar ties, I forget. If you want to maintain the same roof line, just higher up, Jim's suggestion of a crane makes sense.As far as not being able to stand up any pre-framed walls, you're right, you can't. I do mostly remodeling and am pretty used to toenailing in studs with my nailgun, for only one floor you aren't going to save huge amounts of time with pre-made walls.One more piece of advice--if this is a money-making proposition for you, doing it all yourself with only us yoohoos to help you is asking for trouble--working up high is very dangerous, you're talking about some tricky structural work, and opening up the interior to the elements--you'd be wise to hire at least the framing and roofing out, save the DIY for siding, windows, trim, painting...there's plenty of things to take up your extra time. This is no novice project. There, just had to get that off my chest. Do whatever you want....Mike
*Mike,Thanks for your thoughts. I know it's a big project and frought with "Oh My Gawd"s. I would definitely hire out the initial frame-up and roof as you suggest here. I dont see it as a one man job ... except, again as you mention, all the interior finishing work... which would actually be several months of work for one lone guy.I got a lot of good thoughts and ideas from this discussion. Thanks again.Maybe I'll put up a simple posting in the end regarding final costs.as
*Aaron-We did this for one of my partners a few years ago. The house was a conventionally framed ranch 40x28 with a metal roof on purlins. We spent a day removing the metal and sistering 2x10s to the 2x8 ceiling joists as well as moving a lot of wiring. We then replaced the roofing using about 1/20 the number of screws and waited for a two day clear forecast. The first day we assembled a crew of 7 skilled carpenters. We took off the roof and the gables, sheathed the new second floor, and framed the second story walls. The second day day we raised the trusses, sheathed and papered the roof. We had a few cracks in the sheetrock on the first floor but that was all. Of course it took a lot longer that two months for my partner to finish the rest of the job. We did the work for nothing but it would have cost about $12000 for a paying customer. We would charge a lot more for the disaster factor.
*Five grand for the rough in of the second floor? Wow ... now that actually sounds quite low. Now, I'm talking about the crane precedure (if possible) and considering in roughing of the exterior walls only... labor only. I think five should be enough. (Ohio standards)If you go the conventional way forget about it... Why don't you put up a picture of your house?
*OK! You have done the "Why I Want To Do This". To me that is the most important part. Too many, way too many, people take on something like this without counting the cost in money, time and effort. Then when they get done they look at the result and say "Boy did I screw up": "But I'm never going to admit it in public".You on the other hand seem to have a pretty general idea of the cost and definitely know why. Now you need to answer the question of whether you can do this yourself. I've seen DIY popups and stretchouts. If they guy knows what he is doing they work out fine. If not, well... So, now I would make an appointment with a good architect, get some detailed plans and then make the DIY - Contractor decision. After that either go shopping for a contractor or get cracking on this second job for you.All this assumes of course that since you didn't mention financing that you have that already locked up, either out of pocket or from the bank. If not then that is an early mandatory step. Their rules may make a lot of decisions for you.
*The FHB article is in issue 102, May 1996, p.64.Mike
*If I had a digital camera I would DEFINITELY post a pic here! That would be great since then we'd all be talking about the same job! Alas .. I'm still stuck in the negatives-and-paper-print age of man. (To go get picks, have em put on disk, and try an post em now would be too late .. the threads about to die .. shoulda done that at the outset.)It's a classic Bungalow with a high roof which makes room for a couple o nice rooms in the center of the second floor but creates a terrible waste of space at the downslope sides. I wouldn't really know what I was doing from any experience on a job like this since I've done ground floor additions and little (but total) studio conversions n stuff but nothing this 'grand'. I always learned as I went and consulted, consulted, consulted. (It has helped that my uncle's a builder/engineer). Everything, thus far, has turned out beautifully. But I'd never actually attempt something like this alone.The money thing is a definite consideration ... but I'm about to sell my teeny-tiny little house and after the realtors and the state take their gouge outa me and the banks take back the remainder of the mortgage I'll have a little to play with. From everything that's been said here I really think its a do-er. If I do I'll splurge and buy the digi-cam, document the progress and post it here to the gallery thread for sure.Love the feedback here -- thanks so much!as.
*I looked into the same issue with my general contractor when we were considering a substantial remodel of a 1910 A-frame farmhouse in Indianapolis, IN. The options were to raise the second floor, keeping the same footprint, or to add on to one or another sides of the house to create more floor space (we basically wanted a third bedroom and a family room).I was told by the three contractors I asked that the cost of adding a second floor would be the same as the cost of adding space onto one side, with much greater risk for damaging the first floor elements and incurring more costs that way. In the end, we would end up with a house that on paper looked to be the same square footage (about 2000, although 500 of that is now unusable due to the pitch of the roof). They estimated the job, including new roof, siding, entirely new second floor (except an existing bathroom), new stairwell, and new fairly high-end kitchen, to be around $175,000!!! Most of the prices I've read here seem lower. WHat do you think of this estimate?Comments appreciated
*>WHat do you think of this estimate?I don't think they wanted the job. I just built a good sized open beamed addition ..18' to the ridge, the whole interior was covered with T&G cedar, stone fireplace from floor to ceiling, 1/2 loft bedroom, nice staircase. Sliding doors to a 12x12 deck with landing and two sets of steps for about 90,000.00 and I made plenty of profit. Being in Indiana and me in Ohio prices should be somewhat the same (I think)I do an average kitchen for about seven ...ten grand.
*Too bad you don't work around here.... We've decided to go with a two story addition 18 x 27 feet with a peaked gable roof including a foyer, living room, master bedroom and bath, re-do the staircase, new kitchen, knock out a wall or two, re-side the house, and put on a new roof. I've given the plans to three local contractors for bids, but it sounds preliminarily as if all will be in the $150-175,000 dollar range. I wonder if I should be looking to other qualified contractors. THe house is old (1910) and granted this is a lot of work, but it seems a bit exhorbitant to me. I haven't even specified solid gold fixtures....Thanks for the input.
*Paul,I'm just shooting from the hip here and to really come up with a decent bid, I'd need the prints, etc. but the first thing I'd wonder "is the house worth putting that much money into it?"If you could find a good carpenter/builder you might get a better deal. I don't know, things are expensive these days and I may be behind the times. Hell, I remember when Coke came in a bottle and only cost a dime, gas was 28 cents a gallon, the girls wore dresses to school, rrreeeemmminisssssingggg....zzzzzzzzzz
*My GAAAAAAAWD!$150 -- $175K for what your talkin? That completely blows me away! Maybe they just figured the solid gold fixtures were a 'given' ? ? ? Yeeeesh!!!
*Rather than look for other qualified contractors until you find one who will meet your price, you should scale down your plans so that you can have a competent contractor meet your budget. Just how exorbitant do you think the bids were? It is impossible for any of us to second guess a bid because of regional differences and the lack of specifics but the price does not seem that high to me. "Gold fixtures" can command a much higher price than that.
*
The PICTURE: A Pacific NW 1925 Craftsman Bungalow style house. The footprint is 25'X 40'. The second floor is a 'half story' ... meaning that the pitch of the roof is high enough to allow for a full room at the center and a little, sloped ceiling room slightly off to side of center ... but MOST of the 2nd floor is unusable 'attic' type side space. ((roof-ridge runs crosswise to length of house and roof slopes down to rest on short sides)).
The QUESTION: How feasable to 1)take off roof, put up full height walls all the way around, redo roof (thereby capturing full 2nd floor space. -- or -- 2)(prefered daydream) take off roof, put up full height walls all the way around, floor it, put up SECOND full height walls all the way around, THEN redo simple roof (with lookout deck of course!)
RELATED FACTS: The height issue is not a problem since my limit is 40 feet. The house rests on level land on a good, full, concrete foundation with half basement.
The heart of my question is really the COST for a hired-in basic tear-off, framing/walls/floor/walls/roof for me to finish off interior. I know no-one here can actually SEE it and there would be a million considerations ... but I'm floating this as a broad-range question, as in... your cousin asks you casually, "hey .. whaddaya think it'd cost me to have a second (or second and a half) story dropped onto my place if I finished it off myself?" And he's not going to 'hold you' to anything.
Also -- someone told me, "have the place jacked up and slip a new first story in under. Is this a wiser/sounder approach in some way?
Big question, I know. Hope it's not so big it can't be realistically approached. I'll answer any 'must-know-first's that are needed.
Thank you.
as.