I just quit My apprenticeship at a German Cabinet shop. They were paying me 8 bucks, but when I signed up I was under the impression that I would be learning the best. Turned out to be more about cheap labour then teaching me, so I quit. (Long story short, they got really mad at me.)
Now, I have an opportunity to be building houses for my dad (as GC). He owns a development and wants to put a few spec houses up. Not huge, ugly houses, but small, cozy well built, tastefully designed houses. Now my question is this: Is my journeyman’s ticket really worth anything? Should I go about getting my ticket, or just take this opportunity and learn as I go along?
How many of you have/haven’t got your ticket?
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People are entitled to their own opinions; People are not entitled to their own truth.
Jacob
Replies
I got a ticket about 2 weeks ago. Parked in front of a clients house, left wheels to the curb, and got ticketed for parking facing traffic. Cost me $25.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Ed
I have never seen so many people park the wrong way as I have since moving here to Texas, I figured it was as OK as moving over on the shoulder to let someone pass, which btw, I had never seen before!
Doug
How long have you been apprenticing?
I don't know about a ticket, but I've served a formal apprenticeship through the union and have a certificate for my efforts.
If you want to be a carpenter, an apprenticeship would be great. You could hire a mater carpenter and work with him on your dad's development.
If you wan't to learn to build houses for you dad, the carpenter apprenticeship won't be that important. The two jobs are entirely different.
blue
Depends.
Carpentry, particularly the rougher end of it, is committed by a lot of folks who main job skills seem to be a generalized ability to remain vertical and wear a tool belt. No disrespect to those with real skills. A experienced and talented carpenter is worth their weight in gold. Perhaps, in some cases the field of carpentry is a bit looser.
Might be different in the electrical trade. I know contractors who won't hire anyone to do journeyman level work without a journeyman's license. Part of this is insurance. If something goes wrong the insurance company is going to ask who was on the job. The second question is: Are they qualified? A journeyman's license is a confirmation of of what would otherwise be largely a subjective opinion backed by the authority that signed off on the license.
Not a few contractors tier their pay scale. Those with a journeyman's license make more. No license and it, for the most part, doesn't matter what you know. Your going to work as a helper and make less money doing it.
Sorry the apprenticeship program didn't work out for you.
I don't know about your particular case but in some cases apprentices are worked on the most menial jobs for a long time. Starting with an initial 4 to 8 months and regularly thereafter. It is a matter of testing their metal and providing value for the contractors investment in their training. Apprenticeship programs are not cheap.
Poor candidates often self-select themselves right out of the program. Most, but not necessarily in your case, it is no great loss. Their walking saves potential issues with firing them. Mainly the ones who leave wouldn't have had the grit to get through the combination of work and classroom time. In the electrical program it can make for a 16 hour days when the reading, homework and travel time is included.
Hey Jacob, in B.C. after you put in 6000 documented hours you can go and challenge the exam and have the same "red seal endorsement" good for across Canada.
It is not too bad but be ready for lots of studying before the test and it is all in metric!
The hardest parts are stairs and roof framing just like the real world!
There's no guarantee that "apprentising" on a framing crew will be a great learning experience either. I remember getting hired as a carpenter apprentice and spending the first week or so shoveling gravel in a basement, because "someone" made a two foot mistake on the depth of the excavation. I did similar hump work for those two fine carpenters until they got tired of my bitching about not learning anything and fired my butt.
One way to learn lots of interesting things is to take on the contractors role and then use that position to observe and ask questions of those you hire. Don't be afraid to admit your ignorance and your great interest. I've done that in the remodeling business and learned a good deal that way. Another way to learn is to buy a good text books on carpentry/plumbing/etc and use it to supplement what you're observing others do. I taught myself rafter framing from a textbook. Stair building too. I simply laid a couple of 2X6 on a pair of horses, in the middle of my room during the cold winter months, and practiced lay outs with my framing square until it all made sense to me.
Edited 12/11/2005 10:18 am ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I have two tickets....Industrial Woodworker in Ontario, and Cabinetmaker in Nova Scotia (Red Seal, which as you know means interprovincial standard....good all across Canada). Thinking about doing my carpentry one this year. These are provincial certifications, not union ones. So, yes, I believe in the system, and if you are in this for the long haul, it is in your best interests to complete it. Like someone said, in most provinces as long as you have the in-school requirements, and enough hours, you can challenge the exam.....in this province, you also have to have two journeymen vouch for you. Which trade are you looking at , carpentry or cabinetmaking?
Although I believe in the system, as I said, to what degree the ticket will benefit you depends on wht you intend doing, and who you associate with.....in some circles, the ticket is very important. Alberta for example, and some parts of the BC industry; commercial cabinetmaking for example. To others, less so. The real test is always going to be, can you do what you say you can do?.....having a ticket, and not being able to perform, you'll still be out the door. And there are excellent craftsmen all over the place who never got certified, but are never out of work.
Shop companies do value the ticket, and it governs the pay rate....I have seen excellent guys, lead hands etc., get turned down for a pay raise becuase they didn't have the ticket; other shops don't care. If you are in the system and certified, there may be training opportunities out there you couldn't access otherwise....the architectural woodworkers for example are working on a post-journeyman series of courses and certifications, but you neeed the ticket. If it's in the back of your mind at all that you might like to teach the trade one day, you'll need the ticket. Same if you want to work in certain other countries.
"The real test is always going to be, can you do what you say you can do?.....having a ticket, and not being able to perform, you'll still be out the door." quote from Adrian
A friend of mine went though the whole process and after four years and achieving his ticket i get a call to come to his house he is building to hang his doors! All he had ever done was framing so he actually had no experience in finishing! Roof framing was the same way, someone else on the crew had always done it so he had no practical experience doing it.
Experience is everything but the ticket is important too after a number of years. Shows everyone you are dead serious about your trade and knowledable in all aspects of it.
I want to do finishing: flooring, trim, cabinets, etc... Framing doesn't really hold any appeal to me. But I want to learn to be a GC, and having framing experience would be helpful.
When I started the Apprenticeship, I figured I would be learning skills that would translate into other areas. After nine months of not learning, listening to tirades against Canadians, Americans, and how all we care about is money, I quit.
The Apprenticeship program didn't fail me, German arrogance and attitudes were the problems. (BTW, you should read Mein Kempf three times to fully appreciate Hitler's genius...)
I worked for myself before I took the Apprenticeship, And I never plan on working for someone else again. Is it possible to learn how to do high-quality work on your own? (obviously, this does not preclude picking brains of others, reading, etc...)-------------------------------
People are entitled to their own opinions; People are not entitled to their own truth.Jacob
I hope your experience hasn't tainted you.
My first year carpentry teacher told us not to specialize right away. Learn as many different areas as you can. Later on you can specialize. If times get tough (as they will again someday) all the areas where you have experience will help you get or hold a job.
If my goal was to become a GC, I would try to learn about as many areas of the construction process as possible. Ask questions. Watch the other trades. This will give you valuable insight into the process of how a building is put together.
When I first started my apprenticeship, it was for a GC who built custom homes as well as a few spec houses. Mainly framing, but also siding, finishing, and concrete work. We also did some renovation and light commercial work. Although I have not been a GC, my experience as a carpenter would most certainly help me in that role.
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