This is just something I’ve been thinking about lately. Does anyone as a common practice have a clause in a contract (let’s say framing contract) for a certain precision? For example, does a contract ever dictate that all walls need to be plumb within say 1/4″ or floors need to be level within a certain amount for a specified run?
It seems this would be reasonable to expect and therefore specify but how would it be enforced? I can see a wall could get persuaded into plumb or shimmed if it’s an exterior wall but what if a floor is out of level by an inch across 20 feet?
So some differences are within tolerances, but what is considered out of tolerance and is this something that can be specified?
I’m running the trim for a large house myself for the first time and I’ve gained a new respect for precise framing.
Replies
NAHB publishes a set of "Residential Performance Guidelines" that lists some of the type of tolerances you're talking about, but to honest- they're embarassingly sloppy tolerances. I think the book was put together to help tract builders get away with shoddy workmanship based on what's in there- they allow an 8' wall to be out of plumb something like 3/4", floors 1" over a relatively short distance, etc. I don't have the book in front of me to be precise with the numbers, but they're pretty loose.
Bob
ok, interesting.
So what happens if you are a GC or an owner/builder and you wind up with floors out of level more than the guidelines (or some other agreed to tolerance)? I'd think there would have to be something contractural setup ahead of time to claim any penalties. Do any framers out there ever see this in their contacts?
Around here the Rhode Island Contractors' Registration Board has published building standards.
Complaints can be made and penalties / fines given.
Maybe I shouldn't have asked. The code for RI allows for masonry stoops to heave up to 1" and cracks in garage floor slabs up to 1/2". Yikes. I think I'd be pretty pissed if I had a 1/2" crack in my garage slab and my concrete guy started quoting from this source. lol.
The link was informative. Thank you for the reply.
Yeah there's some pretty hairy stuff in there...
Definitely not "standards" that people should go by.
Usually, the only two choices are tear it out and fix it or offer a credit to make it acceptable.
"...or offer a credit to make it acceptable."
That kind of attitude really burns my butt. Although it seems to be the accepted norm.
If the quality isn't acceptable, how does giving the customer a credit suddenly MAKE it acceptable ???
I guess bad quality is good enough as long as the price is cheap enough?
I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. [Aristotle]
boss... of course you can offer a credit to make it acceptable
there are so many things in a house that are below standard , or might be below standard.. that can't possible be fixed , short of complete demolition and redoing
the question becomesone of merchantability.. can the product do what it is intended to do
just look thru those RI CRB standards posted above... if you actually build the product to those standards, you will deliver a liveable house... witha lot of faults , but no deficiencies ( by their definitions )
you will also have an unhappy customer
so... what is our goal? a perfect house.. or a happy customer
if a credit makes them happy, that would be acceptable..
now.. you disagree... but suppose you attempt to correct the deficiency .. to make it "perfect" who gets to decide when it is "perfect"
the contractor... or the homeowner ?
guess what... once the deficiency has been noted.. it will probably never be perfect in the eyes of the homeowner
this is a fine line.... admittedly.. but really.. my goal is a happy customer
are you familiar with the term " hollywood side" ?
or " trompe l'oeil " ( to fool the eye ) ?... both are talking about the same thing... if it looks right , it is right.. and what looks bad from one viewing angle may look great from another
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Never heard the term "hollywood side".I don't buy your arguement at all. If nothing is perfect, why don't we give credits on EVERYTHING? Or do we just give credit on the things that the customers holler about? Does that mean that picky, PITA customers get a lot more credits than reasonable ones?To me, if a "defect" isn't important enough to fix, it's not important enough to give a credit on.
I make up my own mind.
Right dear?
There is no tolerance. Everyones house is MY house. If you have to even discuss this, you are in this business for the wrong reasons.
Are you building houses to furniture tollerances?
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Edited 11/29/2006 11:09 pm ET by IdahoDon
NAHB has out a booklet on home building standards.
IIRC there is a simple booklet designed as a HO handout by the builder and a more details contractors version.
Not for houses, but what I remember from a wooden rollercoaster circa 1978 is a tolerance of minus zero, plus 1/8". Philadelphia Toboggan Co, IIRC. I did some photography on that, not any construction.
-- J.S.
I have a little different spin on framing and trim that has works for us, because everyone knows up front.
If the framing is out of whack too much for the quality level of finish we're installing we fix it and back bill the contractor, who can back charge whoever he'd like to. If it includes new sheetrock the contractor needs to take care of getting the new rock up.
Crappy framing is the main reason we now take care of our own stuff.
I encourage younger carps to develope their own standards of what is acceptable in all areas of construction. It makes decisions quicker since it is, or it isn't within specs.
My personal standards are walls plumb within 1/4" over 10'. Non-critical horizontal gaps less than 1/8", verticle gaps less than 1/16". Floors within 1/4" over 8'.
The worlds hardest job is working with other carps with looser standards. For the love of god, if you can't cut a board within 1/16" stay home. :-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
It's the GC's job to see that the framing is done to his standards. I give the trim crew a heads-up when the framers are going to be running their punch-list and they are glad for the chance to be there!. Make the framers run the blocking for window treatment, bath acc., etc. The trim guys set their own for compound crown's, stair terminations, built-in's etc.. Framers don't get their last draw "till the trim guys are happy. Jim