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I’ve searched the archives haven’t seen anything touching on this subject and although I’ve got the ISBN numbers on what appear to be some good books, I’m not confident of finding them or finding help at the big boxes.
I’m finishing my attic and am within site of the finish line but for the word “continuous” in the code relating to stairway handrails.
I’ve got a U-shaped stair with a 5 tread run, 3 winders (45 degree, 90 degree, 45 degree) and another 5 tread run. The “inside” of the U is simply a 2×4 wall whose top follows the angle of the upper run a few inches above where the handrail will go.
Can the handrail be run on the inside with 3 pieces by bisecting the angles for both the horizontal and vertical turns to come up with the miters? I don’t think there are any pre-fab pieces that will help me make the turn. And I can’t believe that I’d have to go to the 7 pieces that would be required were I to only make “turns” in a single plane.
The thing that is throwing me off is comparing the handrail turns to the casing I’m running below the piece I top the wall with. I know that I can’t have the casing (2.25″ Colonial) match as it wraps around the end of the wall because the miter on the side pieces will be longer than the 2.25″
Having never done this before, I’m having difficulty see why I wouldn’t have the same problem with the handrail.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Replies
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Andrew, see if this drawing helps...
The short horizontal run of the wall, before it changes to match the rise of the stair, allows you to trim with an easy 90 degree cut at a 45 degree bevel which then transitions by bisecting the angle created by the rise.
The horizontal section doesn't have to be very big to allow this transition. There should be enough space in your stairwell to add a couple of square cut 2x4's to build out the end of your existing wall to try this feature. Sort of a built-in newel post - you could even top it with a turned cap if you were so inclined. Even a single 2x4 would be enough for the turn but then you would be working with smaller pieces of trim and hand rail.
The hand rail, although standing off from the wall, would be cut the same way, and, the opposite side of the wall, going down, would have the same bisected angle only cut in reverse. Just be sure to join the handrail pieces securely.
Comments? Ralph
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Ralph,
Thanks for your response.
I see what you are getting at. I'm really hoping to avoid adding to the wall because I'm already drywalled, mudded, painted, base moulded, and carpeted ... not to mention mentally worn down. I'm embarrassed to say I've painted myself into a bit of a corner by not giving this more thought before now.
I think your 5 piece handrail system could be adapted to my wall without the short horizontal run provided the layout can be kept within the 32-38" range off the tread nosings. Maybe.
In my exploration last night, I found some books which didn't really address my question and a carpenter at the Home Depot who said that the 3 piece system could be done and the joints if they were off a bit could be sanded or filed to look decent.
Let me ask a question about the 3 piece system in case the measurements on the un-altered wall don't work for the 5 piece system.
I think what I'm hearing you say between the lines is that the 3 piece system won't work well because the cross-sectional profiles of the miters won't line up right. Is this a correct understanding? If so would the profiles be close enough that a little hard work could disguise the shortcut to the point that it wouldn't be a glaring violation of basic finish work.
Thanks again for you help.
Regards,
Andrew
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Ok, Andrew, we'll try again, maybe one of the stairbuilder guys will jump in here, too.
Take 2 short pieces of your casing (trim) and cut the appropriate angles and see for yourself what work must be dine to match the profiles. You might not be pleased with the results.
If you changed the casing you plan to use for the apron trim to S4S flat trim you could match the faces with just a 45 degree bevel cut on both (and the 90 degree cut on one and the correct angle on the piece following the stair rise) and then knock off the nub created on the bottom of the scarf cut. Or, on the horizontal piece, at the turn, use a slightly wider board and you won't have to rip or shape the apron pieces.(You'd have to rip the trim piece going down from the turn, otherwise).
I don't do curved drawings very well but look at the attached picture and use your imagination. Curved (bent) sections of railing are commercially available but I remember reading somewhere about someone who turned a donut shaped piece and cut it into quarters to make a railing return to the wall. A round rail and radiused section would meet with no profile problems (picture using plumbing elbows). Join them at the marks in the drawing.
Is any of this helpful? Ralph
*Andrew- Though I am not a stair guy I have done enough of them to know that you need a piece of railing that will rise with the stairs as well as make the turns. In the case of your stairs this rise will be the equivalent of 4 risers in addition to turning 180 degrees. There are commercially available riser pieces though I don't know how they would work in this case. There also may be a lead time for ordering this. The stairs in the house that we are now building have a U with six winders and a straight tread sandwiched in between. We didn't even try to have a continuous railing at this point. It would have had a 50" rise at this point. I hope the inspector will be understanding.
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Ralph, Schell:
Thanks for your help. I think I've now visualized my problem. I was hoping there was some trick here like there are in many situations, but I don't think there is.
For there to be any chance of profiles coming close in the 3 piece approach, the bottom edge of the piece of handrail at the turn would have to match up with the bottom edge of the piece coming up the bottom run of stairs. For this to happen, the turn piece of handrail would have to be tilted back 40 degrees from vertical in my case. And if that were to happen, aside from having problems attaching the rail ... it would like entirely shoddy.
So that leaves me back at Ralph's 5 piece solution. And unless I'm just talking myself into something out of desperation, I think piece number 3 can have some rise in it to account for the 2 winders on the turn if such a rise is required to stay within the height requirements.
I guess I should probably pay someone to come in and do this right, but I'm pretty stubborn that way sometimes.
Thanks again for all your help.
Regards,
Andrew
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Andrew,
View Image
© 1999-2000
"More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction. Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly."
Woody Allen
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Joe,
Sorry. I may have misused the term.
On the lower and upper straight runs, the treads are approximately 36" wide and 9" deep with the risers something like 8.25". I forget the exact riser height but it varied quite a bit from the original construction to the point that the inspector made me raise some of the treads to get the variance within tolerance.
The three sections that make up the 180 turn are in fact triangular "platforms" that are more or less 3'x3'x4.25' .... 4.25'x4.25'x6' ... and 3'x3'x4.25' respectively. Riser heights are also around 8.25". The leading edge of each platform has a piece added for a bullnose.
Andrew
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Andrew,
View Image
© 1999-2000
"More than any time in history mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction. Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly."
Woody Allen
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Joe:
Yes, that's exactly what it looks like.
I'm not really sure who was responsible for the stair. This was a spec house we bought in 1996. I do know the builder and the company that did the blueprints, but the builder made some unrelated changes from what's on the blueprints so it's hard for me to say who was responsible. I guess ultimately it all comes back to the GC.
I guess they just took the opportunity to take a shortcuts building this stair to the unfinished attic. As I think about it, the list is pretty long.
But anyhow, I think I've finally got my problem solved.
I finally visualized that all attempts to reduce the number of miters were bound to fail. And as I sketched out the upper and lower boundary of the handrail height, I realized that the "technical" range that I was supposed to be dealing with was going to lead to an terrible looking job. The reason was the narrowness of the triangular treads at the inside wall ... coupled with the constant rise ... causes the desired angle of the handrail to steepen before it makes the turn.
So if the lower run is "Wall A", the turn wall is "Wall B", and the upper run is "Wall C" ... then I was going to wind up with pieces like:
A1 - 6 foot main run at 40 degrees
A2 - short run at approximately 60 degrees
A3 - flatten out to horizontal
B1 - 45 degree miter for the turn run (probably horizontal)
C1 - short horizontal run
C2 - long main run at 40 degrees
The shortness of piece A2, A3, and B1 and the steep angle of A2 would be a nightmare with respect to aesthetics, joinery, and anchoring.
At this point, I'd just about settled on using some 8/4 Red Oak stock that I have to manually fabricate a proper turn but wasn't very excited about the prospect and decided to beg for some relief from the inspector.
So I called him up and he offered the idea of a 3 piece system where the pieces line up with a small gap at the joints but are not physically connected. He also offered that the "technical" height requirements were not etched in stone for the whole run. If I maintain the proper height for the majority of the runs and make the turns at reasonable and comfortable heights, he'll sign off on it.
I'm thankful this guy was flexible. I've now got a straightforward solution.
Thanks for all the responses.
Regards,
Andrew
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I've searched the archives haven't seen anything touching on this subject and although I've got the ISBN numbers on what appear to be some good books, I'm not confident of finding them or finding help at the big boxes.
I'm finishing my attic and am within site of the finish line but for the word "continuous" in the code relating to stairway handrails.
I've got a U-shaped stair with a 5 tread run, 3 winders (45 degree, 90 degree, 45 degree) and another 5 tread run. The "inside" of the U is simply a 2x4 wall whose top follows the angle of the upper run a few inches above where the handrail will go.
Can the handrail be run on the inside with 3 pieces by bisecting the angles for both the horizontal and vertical turns to come up with the miters? I don't think there are any pre-fab pieces that will help me make the turn. And I can't believe that I'd have to go to the 7 pieces that would be required were I to only make "turns" in a single plane.
The thing that is throwing me off is comparing the handrail turns to the casing I'm running below the piece I top the wall with. I know that I can't have the casing (2.25" Colonial) match as it wraps around the end of the wall because the miter on the side pieces will be longer than the 2.25"
Having never done this before, I'm having difficulty see why I wouldn't have the same problem with the handrail.
Any help would be much appreciated.