A client wants to do a house that has its master BR upstairs, under the 12:12 roof, with the bedroom configured so that the head of the bed goes against a 48″ knee wall.
Take a look at this floor plan. See the sloped ceiling and knee wall? What he says is to try to put a dormer there to bring some more light in from that direction, but not to tee out to the outside wall. What I have tried to configure is a 10/0 inside-width dormer, with its window face wall in line with the kneewall. For the width of the dormer, the flat 8/0-height ceiling will tee out to the dormer wall, and that little wall will have a row of 1/9-height awning windows.
Neither the sidewalls nor the window face wall will have bearing below, and we want all elements of the surrounding roof frame to be self supporting, so I dreamed up the method for framing shown on the attached .pdf pic.
The dormer roof opening is flanked by multi-ply rafters, sized to the loading, and has an upper and lower header, with stub-rafters hung on the headers as shown.
Dormer sidewalls bear on the side rafters, the little facewall bears on the lower header, and the roof is either trussed with lay-ons as shown, or stickframed.
Is this how you would do it?
Edited 6/4/2006 12:00 am ET by Gene_Davis
Replies
Gene,
I've done something similar, and your drawing looks OK to me. The only thing we had in addition to what you're describing is some 1/2" CDX in a vertical plane that rose up from the "upper header" as you describe it.
The dormers we did this way were much smaller, however -- only about four feet on the exterior face. From a design perspective, do you really think you need such a large dormer just to "bring in some more light"?
I'd install an eave over the windows.
Troy Sprout
"Don't forget the screws"
Gene,
Given the conditions you have to meet, I think you have done a very good job.
On the other hand, I think the conditions are stupid. It would look a great deal better if you could bring it out to the face of the structure and put in taller windows better proportioned to the height of the dormer. You're customer doesn't want to gain the use of floor space he's paying for whether he can use it or not? That's odd.
Ron
ronbudgell,
Here in Orono Minnesota they insist that the dormer be stepped back from the outside wall. I agree it's dumb but city codes demand it!
Frenchy, that's crazy talk. How can they demand that a dormer be built behind the wall? Every two story house has walls stacked on top of one another.
What basis do the use for employing such a rule?
I think you're mistaken.
blue
How can they demand that a dormer be built behind the wall? Every two story house has walls stacked on top of one another.
What basis do the use for employing such a rule?
Are you implying that building codes need adhere to logic? ;)
In the past, a California designer told me that the local codes demanded a set back on the dormer face. Something to do with egress. Of course, he may have misinterpreted the code, but as I recall his initial drawings showed the dormer face coincident with the main floor bearing wall, and the reviewers forced a change.
Blueeyeddevil,
Yes crazy but that's the rule.. Their logic is that a dormer that falls behind the outside wall is a design feature while a dormer at the wall is added sq. ft. of structure!
You think that's crazy? A walk out bay or bow window counts as structure while if it's above the floor it's not structure!
If you put a brick patio under a deck it's part of structure while if you leave it grass or even bare dirt it's not! If you space out the bricks and grow grass between them they count the whole area as hard cover!
The whole concern about structure is that they want no more than 15% of the lot to be house and there are real strict rules regarding the amount of hard cover that is allowed..
However most of the houses are wll over the 15% rule so there is a second standard whereby preexisting non conforming houses can be worked on subject to a whole bunch of arbitary considerations. (I fell into that group!
Hard cover can be the piece of plastic or weed control cloth under a rock bed or a sidewalk or driveway.. Crazy? Three houses down from mine is a house with a single driveway and a three car garage! they made them pull out two thirds of the driveway without even a transition unto the three car garages!
One door has a driveway while two other doors have woodchips and weeds!
The really bad part of these rules is the only way to get a copy of the rule is to break it and then they send you a portion of that building code with the rule on it before they lawyers decend on you.. They actually make people tear things up etc.
I've been trying for 22 years to get a copy of the rules and still don't have a set.. Some of the rules seem so insane as to be somebodies whim. For example I couldn't build a second story over the great room but there is no limits as to the ceiling heights.. hence my great room has a 28 foot ceiling peak..
When I ran for mayor I wanted to correct this stupid situation.
Blue:
That's the way they do it here too, they think it "looks better". Dormer ridges (or roof lines) must join the main roof below the main ridge and dormer sides must be set 3ft in from the edge of the main roof. Makes for additional framing and expense for the HO's but that's the rule.
BILL
Bill, do they have architectual control over your designs?
I've never heard of such crazy stuff except in subs that have deed restrictions.
blue
Frenchy, that's crazy talk. How can they demand that a dormer be built behind the wall? Every two story house has walls stacked on top of one another.What basis do the use for employing such a rule? .......simple! IT's ORONO DAMNIT AND WE CAN DO WHAT WE WANT!having done a few jobs in Orono, I wouldn't be suprised if Frenchy is spot on on this one...crazy, but probably true.knowledge without experience is just information.... Mark Twain
Politicians, like diapers, need to be changed often...and for the same reason. (bumber sticker)
http://www.cobrajem.com
It would look a great deal better if you could bring it out to the face of the structure and put in taller windows better proportioned to the height of the dormer. You're customer doesn't want to gain the use of floor space he's paying for whether he can use it or not?
Ron,
As the designer, Gene could comment on this better than myself, of course, but from my perspective, the proposed design is not a bad idea. Since the HO wants to locate the headboard along that wall, full-height windows would present a problem; the headboard would interfere with window trim and sash operation, and there would be privacy issues to deal with as well.
Secondly, if you were to frame this dormer in the conventional way (forming an alcove in the floor plan), it visually and literally traps the bed in the alcove, making access more difficult. Third, by breaking up the wall, the alcove creates dimensional limitations on bedside furniture and other furniture located along that wall.
Regarding window proportion, I agree with you that it could present an issue, since the dormer shown in this initial sketch has a very large gable relative to the size of the face. However, I think that by skillfully choosing window sizes and layout, an attractive solution could likely be found. As others have suggested, a shed roof might look better in this situation.
Just my two cents.
Thanks for the input. You hit the nail on the head, re not boosting out to the exterior wall below, and making the floorplan tee out. Beds buried in dormers are a no-no, and we cannot put headboards under fulldrop window openings.
See my earlier Sketchup post to Pifin that shows interior, with boosted out dormer width.
A shed roof over this dormer is probably easier than a gabled one, and solves the problem of making windows scale better, plus it gets a shading eave down closer to the window tops. The inside looks the same no matter what the roof type.
In my earlier Sketchup model of the exterior, I was too lazy to show overhung eaves and rakes on the dormer, but of course they would be there if we did it as gabled.
Attached is a study to see where 2x12 rafters for a shed roof arrangement fall. I halved the pitch for the shed to 6:12 as compared to the mainroof at 12:12.
74589.16 in reply to 74589.14
Thanks for the input. You hit the nail on the head, re not boosting out to the exterior wall below, and making the floorplan tee out. Beds buried in dormers are a no-no, and we cannot put headboards under fulldrop window openings
Gene, what are you talking about? How would a building inspector know where you intend to put your bed?!!!
blue
Gene, what are you talking about? How would a building inspector know where you intend to put your bed?!!!
They have their ways.... ;)
Actually, I think Gene means beds in alcoves are an interior design no-no, not a code violation.
Howzit look now?
The built-in arrangement is sort of shown, but the piece at the head would be more complex, with a shape that offers a 9 degree tiltback from bed top to bottom of shelf opening.
Howzit look now?
I have to offer an upfront disclaimer: my heart is in squarely in the architecture of the pre-modern time periods. So apart from dining room hutches or linen closets, I'm not a big fan of built-ins. As a result, the built-in bed that you are sketching simply strikes me as too modern.
From a functional perspective, I prefer the flexibility of being able to change furniture styles or upgrade pieces as budget allows. Built-ins make these changes much more costly, if not prohibitively so.
But in general, it's a great-looking master suite. When ironing out the fine details, I'd draw up the windows over the bed in a couple more three-gang configurations to see how they look: first with equal divisions, second with a 1:2:1 ratio. Also, I'd consider taking Piffin's advice re: 54" minimum knee walls; there's a real difference between "visual space" and "usable space".
Ragnar, I can't help but think in terms of built-ins. What few houses I have built, have been loaded with them, from top to bottom.
For this bedroom we have been considering, however, I had not thought of the bed as built-in, only the headboard/shelf thing and the flanking low dressers.
If you go all the way back to the original post, I recall giving the plans and the link to to the plans, which show this bedroom as having doors or fulldrop windows on every wall save the kneewall side, and it is on this kneewall side we've placed this dormer.
There is no other place at all in the room where a bed will work. Period.
As far as kneewall height goes, we can get from 48" height to 54" quite readily, by simply moving the kneewall inward 6 inches. I hadn't done that, thinking I needed max floor room, but I now see that I probably have room to do so.
The "furniture" items of dressers and headboard/shelf can be freestanding or built-in, it really doesn't matter. Whichever way, they should be done by the owner, IMHO.
I had not thought of the bed as built-in, only the headboard/shelf thing and the flanking low dressers.
Yes, I was referring to the headboard unit and the dressers as well. The bed would not be built-in per se, but there's obviously no other place to put it, as you pointed out.
The "furniture" items of dressers and headboard/shelf can be freestanding or built-in, it really doesn't matter. Whichever way, they should be done by the owner, IMHO.
I agree with you that such decisions should be left to the homeowner. However, as a design professional you can certainly offer your advice and guidance. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this, because perhaps I can learn something.
I typically steer people away from built-ins, because I think that they limit flexibility. If you put in a built-in bank of drawers on a kneewall, for example, you prevent yourself from ever locating a piece of furniture in front of it. Freestanding furniture, on the other hand, is completely flexible. A piece can be moved from one wall to the other, left or right a few inches, or it can be completely replaced if the homeowners' design tastes change in ten years. From a more subjective point of view, I think that freestanding furniture is often more beautiful and expressive than a built-in, as well.
One positive point of built-ins is that they can often maximize available storage space. A built-in hall linen closet will be much more functional than an alcove containing a piece of furniture. So there certainly are applications where a built-in is a better choice.
Since you said you often use built-ins, what other merits would you bring up when discussing them with a client?
Well designed built-in furniture is always made a part of an overall trim scheme, with lines and details all integrated into the whole.
I particularly like built-in dining arrangements, and I think they can bring fabulous functionality into a minimum of space. Banquette seating goes typically tight to walls, something chairs cannot do.
If I can, I like to have bench seating double as hideaway storage, something an ordinary furniture bench cannot do.
There have been a lot of excellent built-in details shown in FH over the years, and Taunton's publication of Sarah Susanka's Inside the Not So Big House is chock full of stuff, too.
Well designed built-in furniture is always made a part of an overall trim scheme, with lines and details all integrated into the whole.
This is true. I especially like built-in dining room hutches and cabinetry in colonnade bases for this very reason.
Funny that you mention "banquette seating". We have a long (eight feet) window seat in our dining room. My wife hates it because it prevents her from locating a sideboard or other piece of furniture there, and wall space is very limited in our dining room. On the other hand, we've used it during Thanksgiving dinners to provide extra seating; we push the tables up to it and arrange the remaining chairs around the other three sides.
Thanks for your thoughts!
What's a building inspector? ;-)
Ragnar,
I built one similar to this one not long ago, but in an alcove with the window face directly above the main wall below. The windows were some small distance above the pillows. No headboard. We had 9' inside the alcove walls. With a queen size bed, placing furniture in the alcove wasn't a problem, nor was access. I rather liked the idea of setting the bed in its own alcove backed by windows. I thought it centred the focus of the room exactly where it should be.
It all depends on what the customer wants, though. And what the designer can talk him/her into.
I agree that a shed roof would look better than a gable dormer. It would minimize the blank space above and below the windows.
(Just mine.)
Ron
Personnally, I don't think dormers look right if brought out to the first floor exterior wall. I am not even sure that would make it a dormer, it would be a gable. Dormers by definition (I believe) are set back from teh exterior wall but typically out further than teh knee walls.
Secondly, and personal opinion again, I think that dormers that are even with teh knee wall and with small windows look better as shed dormers.
I think the dormer would look much better with an arched window and an arched roof matching it, with the arch intersecting the ceiling slope.
They are done like that often here in MI Gene.
blue
I think a shed dormer would look nicer.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
The problem I see is from an interior design POV. That cieling turns into a head bumper right at the space side of bed where I would be standing to pull my pants on in the morning. I suppose after getting a goose egg as I stood up a couple times, I would learn.
better to try to make that space 12' wide, if you can keep your dormer ridge below the main one.
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Piffin, I was thinking the same thing. Those low headrooms probably wouldn't meet code around here.
blue
short kneewalls are fairly common around here - the "Cape" style house wouldn't exist without them. see them as low as 24"
I try to keep mine 54" minimum when I design. On a 12/12, that gives you 6' headroom at point of use 18" out. a man has to try pretty hard to bump his head on that.The critical juncture I was adressing is where the sloped cieling changes to the interiro of the dormer wall though
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Thanks for the input. I was thinking of the issue as well.
Here is a little Sketchup study of the interior. I looked at my rafter layout, and boomed out each side a little, placing the doubled siderafters on 16 layout this time to save lumber and increase insulation.
My inside nominal dormer width jacked up to the 11'-6 1/2" as shown. Dormer roof ridge is still a few inches shy of main. I placed a kingsized bed there, and some 18-deep nightstands. I think I will propose that we do a total wall built-in there, to add a nice set of shelves and lighting stand across the head of the bed, moving the bed out by 12", then make the sidestands part of the whole-wall built-in, making their tops 36-deep.
That will give the owner some valuable storage, plus accomplish this head clearance goal.
BTW, he is single and maybe 5'6" in his thicksole clogs. But maybe his next girlfriend will be 6'2".
Gene, as others have stated, I like the idea of a shed dormer for that application. I think where the windows are low profile awning style, the gable style dormer starts to look like one big gable wall and the windows get a little lost. With the shed style, you can make it wider like Piffin and others reccomended, and the gable won't continue to grow way out of proportion. That being said...
As far as the framing goes, I think thats fine, in fact I design them like that all the time. As long as the ridge is designed as a structural ridge beam and is sized accordingly, there should not be an issue. Also, there may need to be some posts under the load paths on your exterior wall under the ends of either of the multiple ply rafters.