I’m a self-employed illustrator with a huge passion for remodeling and tinkering with my house. I stay away from the structural, but pretty much takes a swing at everything else. My work occupies about 70% of my time and the rest is spent on my fixer-upper, a row house in a historic district. The house is definitely not in a bad shape as such, but needs a lot of TLC and upgrading. I particularly enjoy carpentry.
My problem is that since I’m working almost full time, and seems to find a project everywhere I look, I’ve been working on the house on and off for almost two years. That involves some regular machinery, primarily hand power tools, some hammering and a table saw. I never work with anything that makes noise after 5-6 pm, never start early in the morning and never work on the weekends with noisy equipment.
Recently though, one of my neighbors approached me and told me that they’ve had enough. They feel that there is constant work going on and that they can never relax. Sometimes the noise is so high that their refrigerator is shaking (which I doubt). The houses are separated by a CMU wall so work on that wall is undoubtely loud but I think I’ve drilled on their side twice during these two years.
I’m saddened by this, it’s taken away the fun of working on the house. It is not my intention to offend neighbors and I certainly don’t want to be seen as the neighborhood pest, but it feels like I’m may take to much of a bashing here. The neighbor in question apparently works half time and comes home early, and expects it to be quiet, but with the housing market booming there is always some work going on in the area.
I don’t know the neighbor, haven’t had any problems with them before, but I think I need to investigate my legal rights in case it escalates. I’ve read that construction work is excempt from most noise level restrictions, but I haven’t heard that there is a time limit. I basically thought that work noise during weekday daytime was ok. Has anyone had any similar experience? If anyone is in a position to give some legal advice, it would be greatly appreciated.
Again, I’m not after protecting my right here by being noisy to the full extent of the law, I’m merely wondering if my neighbor is being reasonable.
Best regards
Nicoman
Replies
It'll be a local ordinance issue. Some towns have time limits for making noise in residential zones. Some times have quantitative noise limits -- y'know, so-many-dba-at-so-many-meters. Some towns have specifically outlawed some machines -- for instance leaf blowers. In some places the town has no laws, and you get hit with a civil lawsuit.
I think it'd be a good idea to find out the local ordinances just in case, but you sound like a very considerate neighbor and I think your neighbor just has to live in the real world where not everyone shares his schedule or sensitivities.
My town is trying to pass a noise ordinance, and I spoke up against it at a local board meeting because I am in the process of building a house and I was worried that my construction activity would result in some sort of cease-and-desist order. No worries, I guess I should have read the draft before I opened my mouth, as they said that construction and "intermittent" noise is exempt. My neighbor likes to target shoot on weekends, and that's exempt too (not that I mind - I have my own range). All my hammering and drilling and sawing and machinery etc. is exempt. They can complain if I have a radio on really loud all day, or an unmuffled generator, and even that's questionable. Noise ordinances are meant to limit the "tuner" cars with loud exhausts, loud car and home stereos at all hours, and other, generally controllable and typically "problem" noises.
Having said all that, normal (8 am to 5 pm) daytime weekday construction activity is HIGHLY unlikely to be controlled by a noise ordinance. Check your local statutes. Granted, if you're running machinery and whatever on a weekend or late in the evening, every day, he has a right to be upset after two years, and I would be too. However, if he only works half a day and comes home and wants absolute quiet, that seems unreasonable. Find out when he's out, tell him you'll try to compromise, and do your renovation work mostly when he's gone.
I think that if you cut off your activity at 5 pm every day, without fail, your neighbor has no right to complain.
When I lived in a city row home, I had a neighbor who worked nights. He expected that I wouldn't work on my house during the day, be/c he was sleeping. Of course, the neighbor on the other side was invalid and slept nights, so I wasn't to work on the house then. On the horns of a dilemma! Luckily I had no problems there after the one died and the other moved. :) No neighbor problems ever since, either. :)
I think you've shown consideration of your neighbors and that's all you can do. That said, let me tell you, from first hand experience, why you shouldn't piss your nieghbors off:
We moved in our single family lakefront home over four years ago and got along well with our nieghbors, we even went on vacation together.Their teenage son started a lawn mowing business and we were his first customers. Despite repeated attempts to explain and correct, his services were unsatisfactory. We wrote him a nice letter terminating his services so there would be no confusion with his parents. How nieve of us!
After this, we noticed our neighbors being a bit cool to us. We tried to patch things up, no dice. My neighbor erected an expensive PVC fence between our yards and posted bright "No Tresspassing" signs on our side. He spray painted a bright orange line in the grass at the property line where the fence ended. When I removed the line and signs, which are prohibited by our deed restrictions, I was issued a summons for trespassing. He videotaped the removal. Before I went to court, he served me with a Personal Protection Order, prohibiting me from possessing guns or being in his sight, EVEN ON MY OWN PROPERTY. Three grand in lawyer fees later, both were removed and dismissed.
Days after this defeat, the local building inspector issues me a ticket for placing leaves on my neighbors property after watching another videotape. I rake leaves and this too is dismissed.
Another summons for tresspassing arrives, this time the videotape shows a masked figure allegedly removing debris from my neighbors lot. In the police report, my neighbor admits that his sudden interest in bird houses is to disguise video cameras inside them. Is he nuts or what? This is a neighborhood of 400-800K houses! I'm getting good at this, so I kick his #### in court again, without a lawyer this time. Dismissed. I'm 4 and 0 now.
This spring, I'm issued a summons for contempt of court. The neighbor says I've called her dog and spoken to her and her kids, allegedly in violation of the previous agreement to dismiss. The prosecutor reads the transcript of the last proceeding and speaking on my own property is not prohibited. Dismissal. 5 and 0.
Between the lawyer bills, property survey,lost work time and the landscaping, I'm out ten large.
For those of you wondering what kind of neighbor I am, I lived a decade in a condo sharing walls with neighbors and working out our differences amicably. If we met in a bar, all my old neighbors would buy me a drink, gauranteed. We get invited to most of the local parties, so some people like us.
I don't believe in lawsuits to solve problems, so I'm pretty ignorant about all this. That neighbor of yours is ridiculous. Is there any way you can countersue to help make up some of your expense? For instance, putting up a fence without a signed agreement between neighbors is a real no-no in many places. Additionally, if any of his cameras are pointing into your yard (even a fraction), I'd think that was a peeping tom violation that could land your neighbor in jail.
The fence is in violation of the local building code. Side yard fences are to be no higher than 48", his is 53", they are to have footings 36" deep, his are only 27" (I dug it up and checked on my side). When I informed the building inspector of this, he told me he wouldn't write him up because, and I quote ,"I wouldn't want to get laughed out of court".
When installing the fence, he dug through my cablevision and my lawn sprinkler wires. He paid the lawn sprinkler guys for the repair but wouldn't reimburse me for the cablevision repair which I had to make twice. They admitted deliberatly cutting my cable the second time when I called the Sheriff and he saw the cutters left laying in their yard. The sheriff did nothing for me. I think my neighbor is wealthy and well-connected.
Michigan has recently changed the video law to prevent "upskirt" videotaping, and this may apply here. You can clearly see my property on the video's he's made so far. I've got copies from my discovery motions in the court. I'm already in tenK and I just don't know how much more I want to spend to get this guy to stop.
if you're really 5 and 0 on complaints, you may have a cause of action for abuse of process.
but I'm betting that you really don't want to continue the feud, though there's no way to make it stop.
BTW, always be very careful when dealing with a friend's child. there is no nice way to tell them that junior ain't perfect.
SHGFor every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
BTW, always be very careful when dealing with a friend's child. there is no nice way to tell them that junior ain't perfect.
SHG
He found that out the hard way.
Visit Riley's Tavern in Hunter, Texas. The First after Prohibition. Since 1933.
Almost sounds like he has grounds for a malicious prosecution case, dosen't it?
Visit Riley's Tavern in Hunter, Texas. The First after Prohibition. Since 1933.
it's not really nice to hijack someone else's thread.
but enough about me. let's talk about you. what do you think of me?
I've been accused of many things, but hijacking a thread is a new one.
I sincerely believe that all my contributions were relevant to the discussions and helpful.
If others feel as you do, I will gladly butt out, otherwise I have nothing to apologize for.
"give thanks for small favors ............."There was a piece in the NY Times recently about fast track summer construction. It seems that many of the fancy co-op buildings in NYC limit when construction work can be done. Many have a Memorial-to-Labor Day window (when it is assumed the owners are in the Hamptons, the south of France, or wherever). If you're not done with your project when the curtain comes down, you literally have to wait until the next Memorial Day. Some of these units have stood vacant for 3 years becasue the work could not be done in a single summer; you can imagine what the carrying charges must be on a $10M co-op. From this article, and reading the posts here, it seems to me many people have ratcheted down their tolerance level when it comes to how much noise and disruption they figure they should have to put up with.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
It seemed on point, to me.
Visit Riley's Tavern in Hunter, Texas. The First after Prohibition. Since 1933.
it wasn't that it was off point. it was that it took the thread from the OPs problem to kowboys problem. Nicoman should be allowed to start a thread about his issue without it going into kowboys problem.
I disagree. Kowboy's contribution was fine. It stuck to the subject (read the title), was interesting, and made a good point. Complaining about it is what is changing the thread, so I guess I'm guilty too!Anyhow, I think what Buck said sounds like a good idea. Give them some sort of deadline and if you have future projects give them a large leeway and a time chart.
I'm not sure two threads about neighbor problems is wanted or needed.
Threads only stay hijacked when the original poster stops posting.
blue
According to your logic, if a person starts a thread about an electrical problem, only people who have never experienced an electrical problem shoud respond with theories and conjecture.
If I had an electrical problem, I would appreciate a response from someone who has experienced electrical problems and gave a first-had example of just how serious one could be. Wether or not their electrical problems are resolved or continue is irrelevant as long as their contribution is judged relevant by readers.
Let's be nice neighbors, SHG.
Let's be nice neighbors, SHG
agreed. didn't mean to make this such an issue.
You da man SHG.
This thread is an excellent illustration of why I would never live in an apartment or a condo or the like. I would hate to have someone on the other side of the wall making any sort of noise at all regardless of the time of day or night. Conversely, I would be mortified if I discovered that I was doing something that was bothering one of my neighbors, whether or not I "had the right" to do such.
Ever since I first got into the trades, I have always enjoyed tinkering on my own home. There is no way I would ever do that type of stuff if it was somehow disrupting someone on the other side of a wall. If the origional poster wants to be forever working on his home; I say "Absolutely! go for it! but first buy a house where said activity is not going to drive the neighbors nuts. Believe me I am a big fan of the therapudic properties of working on a project and seing the fruits of your labors along the way, but you need to be in a setting that better suits that lifestyle.
Someone mentioned motercycles... A long time ago I had a very loud bike. (straight pipes) I would leave the house every morning at 5:00 a.m. for work. From the very first day,every morning, 6 days a week, I pushed that bike out of the garage, down the alley, and two blocks to the top of the hill where I would then coast down, pop the clutch, and set off for work. All so that I wouldn't bother my neighbors." If I were a carpenter"
I think I'll just buy a Harley, take up piano lessons and get the beefiest home cinema theatre I can fit. Since that seems to be reasonable for most perhaps I can then use that to negotiate. There just has to be a reasonable use of hobby machinery without having to ask someone else for permission. Even if it's just one hour a day. I definitely want to be reasonable, but on my neighbors terms alone?
Perhaps I missed it in the thread, but in the 70% of the time that you are not working on your home, would you like a next-door neighbor making the same amount of noise as you do, year after year, with no end in sight? Would that disturb you? Hamper your concentration?
so your not happy with all the answers here or do ya just like to argue with people too?
ya really don't seem to be listening to the advice ya asked for ....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Seems like your objection is getting overruled.
<G>
Even a good lawyer can't win them all.
Visit Riley's Tavern in Hunter, Texas. The First after Prohibition. Since 1933.
true that. ;-)
Now the thread is really starting to get hijacked. :o)Anyway, the concensus of the forum seems to be that rowhouse and table saw doesn't mix. What surprises me is that no one has commented on the legal aspects on this, ie what right do I have to make noise, which hours, how long etc. That implies that this is either a grey zone or very few people actually knows what applies. I'm sure a lot of people have noisy habits, such as a Harley, musical instruments, home cinema theatre and it sounds far fetched that the rule should be that it works until the neighbor complains, then you have to sell it.Again, I'm not looking to offend anyone, or in any way fight with my neighbor, but in situations like this it's always good to know your rights. Hopefully, you can then negotiate a win-win solution were both agree on a reasonable compromise.Thanks to all that has chipped in, highly appreciated.Nicoman
In New York City rental apartments, you're not allowed to make noise between 11 PM and 7 AM. On the other hand, the standard apartment lease says that you and everyone in your building are entitled to "quiet enjoyment of the premises" at all times. So the legal aspects can be confusing, and they vary by locality and also relative to zoning. (It's also true that if you buy a condo or coop in NYC the building can impose a limit on how much time you have to complete your renovations. If you don't finish on time, those buildings impose a hefty daily fine for every day you go over.) Let's face it--most people don't want to be disturbed in their homes. They don't want telemarketing calls or strangers at the door wanting to sell them something. Noise is likewise an intrusion, and if your neighbor is sensitive to it, what sort of compromise is really possible for him? In my opinion. you need to focus on the responsibilities to neighbors you took on when you move into a high-density area, especially a situation in which you share walls. I agree with previous posters: arrange with your neighbor to work when he isn't home, and give yourself, and him, a deadline. No one can be asked to live with disturbance for which there's no end in sight.
I think that "quiet enjoyment" clause means more than just noise. I think that it means that the landlord will not harrass the tenant as long as they are current on the rent and otherwise in compliance with the terms and conditions of the lease.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I don't have any legal aspects. Most sound ordinances say no loud stuff from 11pm to 7am. Specifics on the sound will vary, no music over 75db, no equipment over 85db these levels are measured from spot X to the complaint. You need to call your city hall or building dept and ask what ordinance for noise is in your area.
If you do some occasional sawing or pounding with a hammer it's not a huge deal if done after 7am weekdays I think 8 or 9 on Sunday that's my thought. But I live in a house not a connected townhouse. Talk with your neighbor as others have already mentioned and tell them what's up maybe after two years they just want you to "be done already"!!
it's not really nice to hijack someone else's thread.
Oh, come on! His story was certainly in the context of the original post.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Kowboy, that's an incredible development you've got going there. Certainly makes my problems fade in comparison, and no you didn't hijack the thread, you merely responded to follow-up questions from someone else. I certainly don't want to end up in a similar situation as yours, so it was a useful response allright. Something to think about.MisterSteve, that's what I mean, I never make noise after 5pm, only stuff like painting etc. And the days I work on the house or doing carpentry I am working on my visualizations on the evenings.At the end of the day, all I want to do is to use my tools during daytime. When I choose to. I'm not using my small tablesaw 8 hours a day and I'm not hammering every day either. Sometimes I demolish something over two days, like between 9am and 5pm and then it's an occasional hammer now and then for a couple of weeks. Some weeks I'm quiet as a mouse and some I make a little more noise, although never before 9am and never after 5pm, and never on weekends. It makes you wonder how Sears can be allowed to sell table saws to individuals if we aren't allowed to use it for more than a short term project and then never again. Should perhaps come with a warning label 'Intermitent use only'. Sorry to sound frustrated here.Nicoman
Let them be thankfull you don't fancy tinkering with harley's.
Kowboy, I know your pain.
I lived next to a doosey too. It wasn't as bad as your fiasco, but it was bad.
When I moved into this last place, I told my wife not to put any pictures on the walls until I was sure my new neighbors weren't wackos. Nowadays, I would instantly put up a for sale sign when I discovered a neighbor like yours.
Life is too short-I ain't gonna spend then living next to phychos.
blue
while I hate to disagree with my brethren, the problem is that most construction noise happens for a discrete period of time. In other words, it may be a pain for a month, or 6 months, but it comes to an end. Neighbors will put up with the noise because the understand that work has to get done. But when the work goes on forever, with no end in sight, it's another matter.
You live in a townhouse. the impact of noise is different than in a single family house. Whether or not you are violating a local noise ordinance, you are not considering what life is like for your neighbor. Your neighbor has a right to the quiet enjoyment of his property too. It's not like he came over on day 1 and started screaming at you.
For those of my brethren who want are in favor because its suits their business interests (like arguing against a noise ord because it would impact on construction), they would be the first to complain if their peace and quiet at home was disturbed on a constant basis and destined to continue for the rest of their natural lives.
Live and let live. Your neighbor isn't doing anything to bother you. Think about what you are doing to him.
SHG
For every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
Thanks for the replies guys, some very valuable info there. I guess there's a reason neighbors are a classical theme in movies and TV shows.SHG, you are making some valid points and you're probably right. They have been very kind up until now so I can't say they haven't been patient either. I almost wish they did something to bother me, to even it up, but these are an older couple that doesn't seem to do much of anything. I'm just wondering what would be the outcome if one of my neighbors had a Harley that they enjoyed driving now and then. Assume it's one of the noisier models, but completely factory spec. I would probably curse the day they bought it, but I just can't imagine that I would insist that they got rid of it?I've searched the local ordinances but it is not an easy text to digest. Seems to me like if you're doing a time-limited/intermitent remodeling/construction project, with all the permits and during day time, it's crystal clear. It becomes more shady when you're doing more of a continous tinkering, where you occassionally use your power tools. In one state they had a two hour cumulative limit per 24-hour period on leaf blowers, which I assume comes pretty close in terms of noise by an individual. This isn't mentioned from what I can find in my ordinance though.I've talked to the neighbor about time slots, trying to be as reasonable as I can, which means I now have an agreed timeslot of 4 hours per day, 4 days a week, but it doesn't feel good not really knowing my rights. I'm sure the next neighbor will eventually show up asking me to be quiet during that time, as that happens to fit his schedule. As it is now I've caved completely to keep the peace, but I would like to atleast make them understand that I have rights as well, and that by complying to their concerns I'm actually doing them a favor. I think that may be the only long-term solution to get them to be more tolerant. Again, I'm the first to agree that noise isn't fun and I definitely don't want to pester anyone's life, but at the same time we have to share this world and if you need total silence, you should perhaps consider a remote cabin in Montana instead of the middle of a city. Am I totally out of line here?Best,Nicoman
Its never good to have your enemy live next door. Give the neighbor your phone number and permission to call if things get too noisy. Also find out when there is a good time to make noise. Normally a CMU wall will stop most noise, but maybe it doen't seperate the attics.
The way it works here in LA is that anybody can complain and get the cops to come out for any noise any time, except for construction noise. For construction, there are different time limits for contractors and owner-builders. Contractors have to work weekdays or limited Saturday hours, no holidays. Owner-builders can work 7 AM to 9 PM, 24/7. Perhaps a Google search will turn up the text of the laws for your location.
-- J.S.
I am working on a rowhouse right now. It has a single course of bricks, shared attics, and no blocking between the shared ceiling and floor joists. So not all rowhouses are the same and sound will travel. Even intermittent hammering will ruin a dinner, a family rented movie, or junior's homework hour.
You wrote "...I never work with anything that makes noise after 5-6 pm, never start early in the morning and never work on the weekends with noisy equipment."
So what do you work with after 5? And what do you consider non-noisy equipment?
I would get a buddy to run some of the above and go over to your neighbor's and see how loud it is. Could be some "quite" handsaw and miterbox work is really a grateing noise next door.
On my project, only painting and staining, d-wall mudding, and the like is done after 5.
As a self-employed person, is it possible to work on the home during the day and illistrate at night?
-SRJ
how about giving them your completion deadline ...
and sticking to it.
light at the end of the tunnel is probably all they want.
remember ... it's your hobby ... not theirs.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Nicoman; SHG made some very good points, and if I had posted first it would have said read pretty much the same.
The root of the problem lies in the fact that you bought a home that is a bad fit for your lifestyle, and now your neighbour is paying the price.
You are a renovator/woodworker hobbyist, and you don't ever want the projects to end. It isn't reasonable to expect your neighbors that share your walls to just accept this indefinitely. And now that this issue has been brought to your attention, it isn't likely to go away.
I think if you want to keep WWing,and home reno projects as a permanent hobby, you should consider selling your row house, and buying a detached home.
I personally can't imagine living with the restrictions that would be placed upon me living in a Town Home or Row House, and I know I would be a terrible neighbour under those circumstances.
To me this issue isn't about what's legal, it's about what's reasonable for everyone involved.
Good Luck. Walker1
Perhaps your next remodeling project should be to improve the sound proofing between your place and your neighbors. There have been lots of past threads on the subject so a search should get you lots of practical advice.
Mark, I'm honestly the same man in that respect as you. I would do the same if I had a Harley and I see everybody's point about adapting to your surroundings. Some of my previous comments have probably reflected a resignated frustration if the've come through as insensitive. I guess I've been trying to provoce some opinions of what could be seen as reasonable occasional noise, it has to be utopia that everybody is completely quiet at all times. My neighbor in front of me has a fairly big lawn with a gas driven mower and the neighbor two houses away has a barking dog. One of my close neighbors has three kids under ten with vocal cords on steroids, and their small pool entertains most of the street's kids. The neighbor in question has a quite noisy outdoor AC unit. I have a good relationship with most of them, but no one else has ever mentioned me as a nuisance. Granted, none of the others are home as much as this neighbor either.No Jeff, I don't like to argue with people, I like to discuss with them. This is a thread I started to get feedback and perhaps ventilate my frustration. There is no right or wrong answer after which I should shut up and accept. There has been an awful lot of good advice though and I definitely see the problem differently now.Nicoman
Nicoman,
As a former apartment dweller who suffered noisy neighbors, I've been following this thread with interest. But I disagree with many of the other posters. As far as I'm concerned, you can make any noise you want from 9-5. It's your home - you have a right to enjoy it. Your hobby is home improvement - it could be woodworking (there is no end in sight there either), motorcycles, music, loud horizontal recreation (OK, that's more lifestyle than hobby), or any other of the thousands of noisy hobbies in the world. So many people complain about suburban sprawl, and yet if one has to have a freestanding home for every hobby that makes a little noise then we'd all have to live on 5 acres. From my point of view you have been considerate and attempted to accomodate your neighbor. If you need to take it a step further, consider going over and knocking on his door when you want to use power tools. That gives you the chance to chat with a neighbor and also gives him warning that you want to make noise.
You know, there has been a point made that you chose your environment and that your living arrangements aren't well suited to your hobby due to the common wall. Well, your neighbor chose his environment too, with all that comes with it.
I think doing what you CAN to accommodate the neighbors is the best thing to do, but they really aren't in a position to dictate. Maybe adjusting the hours or agreeing to a certain schedule would help. If I know there is an end in sight to the noise I can tolerate it but if I have no idea I'm on edge just waiting for it to end.
I question the practicality of "end in sight". I rehabbed an old city row home over a period of 20 years. Sometimes 4 years went by without any notable work. Sometimes there was a bunch of table-sawing. Depended on the project. And often with these houses, as soon as you "finish" the house, there's another thing to work on and the process starts all over.We tend to be more tolerant of hobbies similar to our own. Amy has it right...in a tight neighborhood, you'll have people with a wide variety of hobbies, and sometimes they just gotta deal with it. Had neighbor who liked music, and in particular, playing the same torch song over and over and over. That was her idiosyncrasy and an irritating one after the 30th repetition. Another had regular drug parties...everyone has their own thing, I guess. If you make satisfying the neighbors your primary goal, you'll never be happy be/c most of them will never be satisfied no matter what you do.Try to be considerate. Try to keep the noise under control. Keep appearances up so that they don't have to look at a pigsty. Stay friendly and try to keep track of not interrupting their birthday parties, dinners, naps, whatever. But in the end, you gotta run your own life, too.
That's why i live in Alaska