I want to replace the cheap plastic downspouts on my 1930 Craftsman Bungalow – some previous owner replaced the original 2″ round galvanized downspouts with cheap plastic ones, which I want to replace. I was going to buy and paint new round galvanized ones but then thought about using chain, which I’ve seen on some houses and I’m wondering the pros and cons of doing this. MOst of what I’ve seen for sale specifically for this is high-end copper or stainless chain or else artistic cups and buckets in a chain, but what I’ve typically seen at older houses just looks like steel chain and I’m guessing it was not galvanized as it’s rusty, which I think adds character.
Just looking for some input on if these work effectively and what sort and size of chain people recommend that won’t break the bank. I do live in far northern coastal California, so when it rains, it rains a lot, but my roof is simple and the quantity of existing downspouts is overkill. so no drainage issues.
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Hi DGale
I am in a similar position. I just bought some 22 gauge weathering steel for our roof, fascia and eavestroughs. We are looking at making rain chains also. What was suggested to me by the company that sold me the metal, is taking two logging chains and wrapping them around a three or four inch pipe, and then welding each link together in the chains, then pull the pipe out. We will just let the chains rust, like the rest of the roof. My question is how to attach them to the trough and how to shed the water that follows the chain down. Also, what happens with a chain during a downpour? Does the water follow the chain or simply gush everywhere?
Mark
Plantations on Hilton Head Island, SC....
Every house has rain chains due to long needled pine trees which cover the island -- downspouts will clog as soon as the first cloud appears on the horizon (perhaps a slight exaggeration, but you get the idea).
Rains very heavily at times, water follows chain to wherever you place the end of the chain on the ground. Not 100% but it does not gush everywhere and is infinitely superior to overflowing gutters due to clogged downspouts.
Most there are 3/16 or 1/4" galvanized which dulls down fairly quickly and is no longer bright. If roof is rusty, go with plain steel to match!
Secured at gutter via an aluminum gutter spike ferrule set in gutter sealant across the downspout opening. If there are galvanic corrosion problems ---- get a new ferrule -- 50 cents? Steel gutters? 6" spike maybe with the head cut off...
Jim Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Great info JTC.Thought they must work reasonably well in heavy rains as they are big in Japan and Japan has a lot of rain. Does the water follow the chain if we put a slight angle on the chain to lead the water further out from the house before having a splash pad?Also, we are considering if there is way to put cathodic protection on our weathering steel roof. It is 22 gauge weathering steel, which should last 70 years or more on our arid climate, but we are building everything else in the house to last 200 years and so we are wondering if there is a way to restrain the corrosion. We then thought of pipelines and ocean going metal ships that use cathodic protection.Anyone know how to do this? I think if I remember from chemistry class in high school, you need to find an element up further on the periodic table than the metal you want to protect. Zinc is normally higher than most metals if I am not mistaken. I would love to hear if somebody knows more about this.Mark
Thought they must work reasonably well in heavy rains as they are big in Japan and Japan has a lot of rain.
On a typical installation, there will need to be more chains to handle the same amount of rain as properly sized downspouts. The places I've seen chains used successfully are usually gutters serving small roofs (like porches) with deep soffits so the chains are away from walls. In the majority of cases, just swapping a downspout for a chain is not acceptable. The gutter system needs to be designed for chains for them to work properly. copper p0rn
We do have 4 foot overhangs on the entire house and in that respect, conventional downspouts would have to travel too far back to the wall to be practical or aesthetic. One of my concerns though was brought up in this forum. Ice. My gutters are 22 gauge steel (same stock as the roofing material) and for lack of a better idea, I am planning on using GRK 4" or 6" RSS's to fasten it to the 2 x 8 fascia. While this should give me a trough that you could do pull ups on, I still worry about 10' of hanging icicle in the wind. Is there anyway to alleviate this risk other than taking them down? Are there any other options for this type of overhang and roof? The supplier of the gutters, don't supply downspouts of the same stock. Any other creative ideas?Mark
We do have 4 foot overhangs on the entire house and in that respect, conventional downspouts would have to travel too far back to the wall to be practical or aesthetic.
Do you even need the gutters? And from the sound of it, you've got a good candidate for chains.
I still worry about 10' of hanging icicle in the wind.
Your profile doesn't give your location, but ice is a concern. The downspouts would ice up as well, but they're attached to the house, which carries a lot of the weight. But I don't think it would be a concern unless you live in an area where sliding snow and ice destroy gutters anyway, if you anchor the chain independently of the gutter.
Is there anyway to alleviate this risk other than taking them down?
Actually, it's likely that you'll get a stalagmite/stalagtite (sp) situation and the ice will support itself.copper p0rn
>>...slight angle on the chain to lead the water further out from the house before having a splash pad?<<
Yes, water can be "lead".
>>Sacrificial anodes....ships, pipelines.....<<
Zinc, and alloys thereof, are used as sacrificial anodes to protect underwater steel, aluminum and bronze hulls and machinery on boats / ships.
"Underwater" is the key word, under saltwater more specifically (although they are used on freshwater vessels also).
I think in order for this to work well, the entire metallic body must be submerged / immersed in water -- the water functions as the conductor between the sacrificial anode and the cathode (roof). Don't think you will have much luck / performance attaching anodes to a roof due to the lack of an electrolytic solution surrounding both the anode and the metal being "protected".
Others, better versed in metallurgy may offer other solutions or opinions.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Thanks for the thoughts Jim.If I put the sacrificial anode on the bottom of the metal roof, up inside the soffit say, does not the entire roof, all in contact and being a conductor, allow for the functioning of the anode?What did you think of our idea of wrapping two chains around a 3 or 4 inch pipe and then spot welding the links together and removing the pipe to have a helix rain chain?Mark
>>..sacrificial anode on the bottom of the metal roof, up inside the soffit say, does not the entire roof, all in contact and being a conductor, allow for the functioning of the anode?<<
The way I understand their function (anodes), no.
I think you would protect a very small section of the roof - namely only the area which is in direct contact with the anode itself.
In an underwater marine environment, the anode(s) is "connected" to the entire wetted surface of the hull via the saltwater which allows for electron flow between hull material and the anode. Anodes in hot water heaters are similarly "connected" to the entire interior tank surface via the water in the heater.
>>.....helix rain chain?<<
T'would be very pretty! I think the "rate of advance" of the coil would need to be pretty fast to keep the water from just falling off of it - experimentation would be in order.
"Rate of advance" = "clear-as-mud" type of term......
Meaning, as you wrap the chain around the pipe how far along the length of the pipe the chain "advances" in one 360* wrap - one foot? 2 feet? 3 feet? 4 feet? Experimentation will provide an answer as to what "rate of advance" will both look good and maintain water flow along the chain's length.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Hi Jim.Thanks again for the thoughts. Depending on the size of the chain, I think that a steep "rate of advance" may provide good aesthetics anyway. I think the rule of thumb will be steeper better than too little slope. Will experiment. One more question would be whether to have the chains run opposite directions (ie clockwise and counter clockwise) so they cross and form that helix or to run them in the same direction, not crossing but evenly spaced from each other. What do you see for advantages and disadvantages, aesthetics included?I accept and understand what you are saying about the sacrificial anode but know that they have electronic rust protection systems for cars now. I don't know at all how they work but I gather it is based on some sort of cathodic protection principal and the cars have no conducting solution enveloping the body of the car. Do you know anything about that? Thanks again for the brain stimulating thoughts.Mark
>>.....opposite directions......or to run them in the same direction....<<
Opposite directions would probably look cool but would add more "mass" to the chain structure - depends on your goal --- adding an architectural detail or making the "downspout" disappear.
I suspect that crossing the chains will produce more "splash" as water travels down the chain. Same direction would produce two parallel streams of water.
You might achieve the double helix look and avoid the splash by making one helix around a 3" pipe and the second helix around a 4" pipe - assemble with 3" inside of 4" -- two streams of water going in seemingly opposite directions..... a few spacer bars would hold them in position relative to each other. Or, a 2" and 3", etc.
>>.....electronic rust protection systems for cars now. I don't know at all how they work....<<
Me neither, do understand marine sacrificial anodes. There are electrically assisted corrosion protection systems found on some larger aluminum boat hulls, don't know how they work either.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
double helix only works on the equator. ya know how water circles the drain one way up here, and the other way down there?
You'll mess up the planet's dna helix if you go against mother nature.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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I made my original rain chain from copper ground wire makinh a series of loops. I used the copper ferrules to connect the ends. This worked quite well and made one heck of an icicle last year.
This year we bought a fish chain and placed a pot beneath. The pot has a hole in the bottom covered with stones. This allows for the water to dissapate more kindly without eroding our hill side there.
NICE!
You might check with some boatyards or marine salvage companies. There should be some appropriate sized anchor chain available in the area. I think scrap steel is going for something like $20/ton now.
I'd go with your first thought of using galvanized round corrugated downspouts , and skip the chains .
Ya, I'd go with what the Slateman says. (And he's a man who tends to know a thing or two about roof drainage.)I tried chains. Unless you have JUST the right amount of flow, they don't hold the water. Too little=splash. Too much=way bigger splash.Plus they encourage cloggage around the drain openning. The chains cost me $200 plus. I ripped them all out and installed proper downspouts.Scott.
Edited 10/25/2009 9:02 pm by Scott
I'm sorry but Rain Chains are not solely about function. Their purpose is the aesthetic.
The chain offers sound and a visual in it's movement of the water. As to clogging, heck your gutters are going to clog anyway. As to drainage that's something you need to deal with even using a downspout.
As mine show I allow the water it's path except by usiing the bowl I gurgle and soften it's effect on the soil, It's on a slope and most of the immediate area has stone about.
edited to add
As SEEYOU says though I do have deep eaves and this is out front for street appeal. It does pass a lot of water from at least 600 sq.ft. of roof.
Edited 10/25/2009 9:54 pm by jagwah
Amen.Gutters can be designed to blend in with the cornice and fascia detail so they almost disappear. Downspouts-not so much. Generally speaking they are ugly, whether round or square. If there is any overhang, elbows and drops stand out in the most annoying way.I've seen houses where the downs were built into the design to disappear, but that's usually a recipe for disaster. I've always had the philosophy to make the downspouts blend in with the siding, painting to match if necessary. They draw so much attention to themselves if they stand out from the siding.The chain is a beautiful, elegant way to deal with the water, and I wish more people appreciated it.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
I have both on my house. Just as you said they reveal to much with a home that has deep eaves. I've been lucky to place my drops where they don't stand out.
But in this case there is no way I could have reconciled the drop to the column and there was no where else to go. That eave is 30" and the porch there is 5' deep. The other end is in the path way into the house.
But still I'd of done it because it just look good.
>>>I'm sorry but Rain Chains are not solely about function. Their purpose is the aesthetic.I completely agree. It was the aesthetic aspect that prompted me to try the chains in the first place. I really liked the idea. I even dreamed about some Über-Cool Japanese ones with spouts that poured from one link to the other. But in my case function lead to disfunction, and it eventually outweighed the aesthetic. Perhaps I had the wrong type of chain; I don't know. But the whole thing turned out to be a PITA for me.Best wishes,Scott.
This is a great detail for Craftsman Bungalows.
It is not as efficient as downspouts, but if you have good drains and proper slope away from the house, or good splash blocks, it should work fine.
I've seen them run into rain barrels as well.
John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Oh yeah- I've seen brass links and steel. Keep in mind that the water will carry stains from whatever metal you use. This can add visually to the patina on splash blocks, but it may not be to your liking if it stains a sidewalk. In that case galvanized may be you best bet, until it begins to rust.
Don't know if there is stainless chain available, but personally I have liked the weathered look of dull brass or plain rusted steel the best.
John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
One branch of our local library has rain chains. They look great.
IIRC, they're made of 3/8" x 3" link chain.
I'll try to swing by for a pic to post some time when it's raining -- should be easy enough to do given the weather we've been having here in Mich!
AitchKay
Been messing with this idea for years.
Best so far for me and the PNW climate is small link chain that is of the type used in dog leashes. This year I made a collar to fit around the outside of the drop and hung the chains from the collar.
Previous years experience is that hanging them from inside the drop causes clogs and debris buildup plus the water splashes more than I want it to.
Takes a lot of chain but so far the ring of chains contains the water better than previous experiments.
As to an actual chain. The one I made of heavy copper ground wire was 3" links, 3 side by side to resemble a series of copper balls from the gutter to ground.
It may be I did to good a job containing the water because when we went through a bit of an ice storm I failed to notice it icing before it was to late. The good news is since it froze all the way to the groung there wasn't any real weight on the gutter. I just had to make sure when it melted I got it down before it did hurt the gutter.
The new one I intend to watch and if there is an issue, take it down. It was a very unusual and vicious ice storm for us.
Wow, thanks for all the great ideas and discussion. Freezing is a non-issue here and my roof has minimal leaves and debris load, so I think with an occasional check and clean-out in the winter that wont be an issue. My house has dutch gutters and soffits that are probably 24" out from the siding. My plan was to place the chain through the drops in the dutch gutters and just place a spike or large nail through the top link to hang the chain. I'm not sure about the bottom end but I planned to do something with gravel - I like the idea of a pot but I was thinking more of digging a ~18" square hole at the base of each and filling it with gravel and perhaps figuring out how to fasten the chain down into the gravel. Maybe I should try a couple in the front of the house just to see how they work and if there are any problems before jumping head first in either direction on a complete replacement. I'll check the local marine supply to see what types and prices they have on chain.
Chains might not get you past the foundation overdig area and then the drain water would just end up concentrated at spots around the foundation.
Consider then adding drain tile out to a "rain garden" Some counties are now giving $$ incentives for rain gardens to cut down on storm water treatment costs
http://www.lowimpactdevelopment.org/raingarden_design/whatisaraingarden.htm
http://www.lucascountygreen.com/
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Good point. We were thinking of some sort of rock spillway already that can work even during periods of freezing.Mark
Just a follow-up to this post I made a little over a year ago - I ended up installing a couple chains off the front porch roof just to see how they perform. They work fine but my only beef at this point is the only chain I could find that was the right size was galvanized - I had hoped they would rust by now but for the most part are still shiny silver, which detracts from the aesthetic I was shooting for. Not really sure where to buy just regular steel chain that will rust promptly - any thoughts out there?
I'm sure I could find you something here in Japan to fit the bill, but the "bill" wouldn't be cheap. This one is made of copper, and sells for about $500 for a 2.7m set:
http://www.murokanamono.co.jp/shop-wadokusari-image11.jpg
Throw the chains into a hot fire, the galvanize will burn off, while creating zinc fumes, so don't breathe any of the smoke.
Good hardware store
My hardware store has plain steel chain.
Any decent industrial supply should have plain steel chain. I've bought it before becuase it has significantly higher strength rating than the galvinized stuff (why????? I always wondered).
Having worked with high strength steels, I can answer your question. The reason is "hydrogen embrittlement".
In order to galvanize something, the steel must be completely cleaned requiring the use of acid. Unfortunately, as we all know, acid on steel causes bubbles to form. Those bubbles are the result of a chemical reaction on the steel, and the bubbles are hydrogen gas. The problem is that hydrogen is soluble in steel. Yup, you read that correctly. The hydrogen gets inside the steel, and (by one theory at least), lubricates the area between the grains in the steel.
So, when the steel is stressed, the grains slip, and the steel breaks instead of stretching. For load-bearing products this can cause "interesting" problems. Most chain steels are processed to avoid hydrogen embrittling. For that reason, galvanizing is a big NO-NO except in very specialized areas, where expensive treatments can be afforded.
Thanks, I always wondered about that.
Floyd's equipment in Tacoma.
Sandpaper.
just thoughts.....
Used to be, the mom and pop lumberyard here sold chain both galvy and un by the foot. Haven't looked lately.
Having bought both to use for dragging or tie down applications over the years I am surprised your galvy chain is still shiny.
My experience with chain in "active" use is that galvy coated stains in less than a year and uncoated rusts up a storm in short order.
In your area of the country there should be several logging supply companies that will have a great variety of chain and cable.